Fr. Alex Goussetis: Welcome to Family Matters. My name is Fr. Alex Goussetis, and today I am speaking with Fr. Stavros Akrotirianakis. Our topic is: “A Persepctive on Inter-Racial and Inter-Ethnic Relationships.”

Fr. Stavros hails from Whittier, California. He is a graduate of Holy Cross Seminary and serves as pastor of St. John the Baptist Greek Orthodox Church in Tampa, Florida. Since 2000, he has served as one of the directors of St. Stephen’s Summer Camp for the Metropolis of Atlanta. Fr. Stavros is married to Presvytera Lisa, and they have one son, Nicholas. He writes a daily reflection called “The Prayer Team,” which is emailed each morning to over 4,000 people. These reflections have resulted in the publication of eight books. Welcome, Fr. Stavros!

Fr. Stavros Akrotirianakis: Hey, Fr. Alex! Wonderful to be with you.

Fr. Alex: The issues of race and ethnicity, and their impact on American life, are well-documented, whether we are referring to the history of slavery or the ongoing debate on immigration, race and ethnicity often draw heated discussions. The Church in America is not immune from these issues, but rather than reflect on the political ramifications and public discourse on race and ethnicity, let’s talk about the faith perspective, and specifically the pastoral realities that affect parishioners and parish life. So, Fr. Stavros, tell us a little bit about your own experience on this topic of inter-racial relationships.

Fr. Stavros: Thank you, Fr. Alex. I am very blessed. My presvytera, Lisa, is 100% Japanese, from Hawaii. I know there are some other clergy in our Archdiocese who have Asian presvyteres, but I think that I’m the first one, or if I’m not the first, I’m among the first. And so we’ve been married now 28 years. She grew up Southern Baptist, and when we were dating, I told her that I was— I felt called to the priesthood. I knew that I wanted to marry somebody who was Orthodox. And so, on her own, thank God, she started coming to the church with me.

Looking back at how things were back then, we went to a church that was primarily Greek-speaking. It must be the grace of the Holy Spirit that convicted her heart, because the worship experience for her was very different. It wasn’t in her language. She’d grown up Southern Baptist, and one of the first things she asked me was: How come people don’t sing here? There were some of those things that lots of people who convert to our faith go through: the efficacy of icons, fasting, devotion to the Virgin Mary, and things like that. Eventually she decided to become Orthodox.

She is the only one in her family who became Orthodox—she has parents and a brother—so there are some cultural differences, and it’s always a little bit interesting/challenging when one person from a family sort of integrates into another faith without the rest of the family. I have always been welcoming to her family, and they’ve always been very respectful to me. I’ve never felt the urge to convert them or anything.

I would say in the early years of our marriage and ministry— We got married in 1995; I was ordained in 1997. I served in New England for a few years, and then I’ve been down in the South. I would say in the early years of marriage and ministry, a few people made comments. That doesn’t really happen so much any more, but I’ve had people say, especially in the early years, “You’re setting a bad example. You didn’t marry Greek,” and I point out: 80-90% of people don’t marry Greek. I didn’t marry Caucasian, but we’re all human beings.

When I talk to my son about marrying in the future, I say, “I hope that you’ll marry someone who’s Christian, preferably Orthodox Christian.” And we kind of leave it at that. I don’t ever say, “I hope you marry someone who’s Greek”—or white or Japanese or whatever. I hope he finds a decent, good human being who is a Christian person, and preferably who will embrace our Orthodox faith.

Fr. Alex: So you’ve kind of shared some of the personal transitions that you and your family have had to endure over the 28 years of marriage. On a general level, what would be some of the advice in regards to the challenges that inter-racial couples need to be aware of or prepare for as they consider Orthodoxy?

Fr. Stavros: You know, I would say certain parishes are more welcoming; certain parishes are less welcoming. That might be due to the racial difference. I know that there’s still a degree of that in many pockets of society; probably in certain areas of the country it’s a little bit more prevalent. But there’s the cultural difference between Greek and non-Greek, which I think is a bigger gulf than white and non-white.

In our parish in Tampa, we have several people who are African American—one of the gentlemen who serves at the altar with me every Sunday, the person who runs our Junior Olympics—and people are like: “Wow! How cool!” and I’m like: I don’t think it’s cool; they’re just awesome people. They’re just part of the fabric of our parish. I don’t look at that and think it’s cool; it’s just normal. They’re wonderful guys, and I love having them serving around me.

I’ve been lucky that in two of the three parishes I’ve served, they were very welcoming, but we did have an instance in the first parish I served, which I didn’t serve for long, where they were outwardly racist, not only toward her but toward other people. That parish doesn’t exist any more, so that’s a good thing. But, yeah, there was definitely some of that early on.

Fr. Alex: I think it’s important that we draw a distinction between a couple of words, maybe, because I think some may be hearing this conversation in terms of being anti-Greek or somehow diminishing Greek people. So a couple of the words: one is “patriotism,” which is special affection towards one’s country, a devotion, loyalty towards one’s nation or one’s culture, and there’s nothing wrong with that level of patriotism and appreciation of our nation or our culture.

Fr. Stavros: Absolutely. Nothing wrong with that at all.

Fr. Alex: That’s a good thing. Nothing wrong at all, exactly. We are who we are, and we’re a melting-pot. In fact, I heard a parishioner [who] once told me she didn’t like the term “melting-pot” because “melting-pot” implies that we all lose our individuality, and she preferred the term, “a tossed salad,” because there’s different parts that make it very tasty and delicious. I think that’s a really good distinction.

But what we do have to be on guard of—and this talks a little bit about Church history and a little bit about the theology of our Church—is a term called “phyletism”: basically, placing the importance of nationalism or racial ethnic distinctions above the Church boundaries. This was a term that was coined at a synod that met in Constantinople in 1872, so this is fairly recent in terms of Church history, but it’s basically placing nationalism, racial ethnic distinctions, above the Church boundaries, or really choosing only to serve particular racial or ethnic group at the expense of other peoples. I think that’s really what Fr. Stavros and I are really focusing on. It’s not diminishing anyone’s particular background, especially if they come from a Greek background, but moreso how are we relating and accepting and supporting those of different races and different ethnic backgrounds.

Fr. Stavros: You know, if I could interject—and thank you for putting those thoughts in. I am very proud of my Greek heritage. My dad was born in Chania, Crete. I just recently went to Greece for the first time in my life and enjoyed it, and it helped me understand a little bit more of who I am and whom I serve. On my phone, my top music preferences are Greek; I play drums in a Greek band at our festival. My wife knows how to cook Greek food, in some cases better than some of the Greek people—I won’t say that too loudly. She makes pastries. Christmas comes, she’s like: “We’ve got to roll koulourakia!” She’ll get up and Greek dance. Our son, who is more Japanese than Greek, is part of our dance group. She has embraced that, and they’ve embraced her. It’s been just a really nice meeting, marriage, if you will: [she] and the parishes that I’ve served.

Fr. Alex: And I can express and mirror those words. I’m a product of Greek immigrants. I’m so thankful I’ve been shaped and molded. I’m proud of my heritage and how it’s played an important part of my life, so I also feel the same way in terms of my roots as well.

Let’s talk about parish life. How can communities be more welcoming, or at least judgmental, with people of all ethnic backgrounds?

Fr. Stavros: Well, I think that the biggest thing is understanding the Great Commission, and a mindset of: Is it church for us or church for others? If this is just church for us, then it dies with us. We’re not going to be around for very long. The entire history of Christianity is based on church for others. Jesus picked twelve disciples, and they went out and converted people. Jesus didn’t say, “Hey, this is a great thing we’ve got going. Let’s keep it all to ourselves.” He said, “Go out and baptize all nations.” Many times, we as individual Christians, outside of the cultural context, we think, “Well, I know Christ. I know enough. I go worship. I give my tithe. I do some good things,” and we don’t think about the evangelism being an obligation for every Christian. It’s not just the priest’s job to spread the Gospel; we all have to do that. When we go stand in front of the Lord at the last judgment, he’s going to say, “What did you do to further the Gospel?” And if you say, “Well, I went to church every Sunday”: “Well, what else? Did you do anything? Did you ever talk to anybody about it?”

So I think we just collectively, in all corners of the Church, don’t understand the Great Commission, that that is read over every person that’s baptized. Every person gets the same commission. Whether you end up as a priest or not, we [have] all read over us: “Go make disciples of all nations.” So once people understand that, then “all the nations” means all the nations, whether Greek or American or Black or white or Asian or whatever, we are not supposed to be ethnocentric or insular, but make disciples of all people.

And secondly, or maybe it becomes first, to find value in all the people. Like I said, I have people that are in my close circle that are of different races, but I don’t— I never look at them and say, “Here’s my African American friend.” [Laughter] This person’s my friend because they have value: they’re honest; they have integrity. When we see honesty and integrity and value in everybody, and we understand that we’re supposed to spread the Gospel to everybody, I think that that will break down the judgmental tendencies.

Fr. Alex: To think of the Church not as a club but as an organization that is meant for all.

Fr. Stavros: Mm-hm. We go serve the hungry in Tampa; we have this community outreach ministry. Someone said this one time—pardon my expression—“How come we’re going and feeding the mavroi?” I’m like: “We’re feeding people who are hungry. These are people who are hungry.” In fact, I gave a sermon, and I used the Greek, where Jesus said, “Panta ta ethnoi. All the nations,” not “Panta ta athnoi. All the white people.” It’s all the people.

So when people are hungry, we feed them. They’re hungry people. When people are sad, we comfort them. When people are lonely, we embrace them. It doesn’t— The culture shouldn’t factor into any of that.

Fr. Alex: As a pastor, have you been in a position of ministering to couples who are considering deepening their relationship, in other words, inter-ethnic, inter-racial relationships? Have you had experience with that in your pastorate?

Fr. Stavros: Well, yeah. Actually, the first wedding—the first ever wedding I did was Caucasian with African American, back in Boston, the day after I got ordained. I have had several in my ministry here, and several couples in my parish whom I didn’t marry but have joined our parish, are in the same inter-ethnic match. There was a priest years ago who gave a speech at some retreat I was at who was married to a non-Greek person, 50 years ago. He’s a priest, and he got married before it was sort of in vogue to do this, and so he said, “Everyone asks my wife, ‘Are you Greek?’ And she would say, ‘No.’ And they would say, ‘Oh, that’s okay.’ ” As if to say, “You’re missing your ear, but we’ll accept you.” People ask my presvytera that: “Are you Greek?” And she’ll say, “No.” And they’ll say, “That’s okay.” So every time I’m in a situation, and I’ll say to someone, “Are you Greek?” and they’re like: “No,” and I’m like: “That’s awesome!” [Laughter] Because nobody wants to be “okay”; we all want to be more than okay.

I tell people, what’s wonderful about people embracing people outside of our culture is that we have the opportunity to increase the number. If Yianni in my parish marries Maria from my parish, well, I had both of them single; now I have both of them family. I didn’t gain anybody! But if Yianni goes out and marries Jennifer, and Maria goes out and marries Henry, well, now I had two single people—now I have four people! So bringing from outside the group actually multiplies our number; that’s a good thing.

Fr. Alex: The reality is that the pipeline from overseas really doesn’t exist or is very limited. We’re not in that period of mass immigration in terms of Orthodox peoples like it used to be in the prior century. So unless we do continue to share the faith, evangelize, and welcome all peoples, our church is going to close at some point.

Fr. Stavros: Well, the other thing is that—you’ve married many people, as I have—when those two people stand in front of you at the altar, they are potentially hundreds of people, because those two people are going to have kids and grandkids and great-grandkids. From those two will become many. So it’s not about only those two people; it’s about all those who are going to come after them, and if we don’t do well with those two people, we not only lose two, we lose dozens.

As you say, there’s not really a pipeline from Greece. If we’re not looking outside of ourselves, we won’t have this treasure of Orthodoxy in that couple generations.

Fr. Alex: Final message, advice, observations, Father, on this topic?

Fr. Stavros: You know, it’s like a hot-button political thing. Everyone talks. I’ve never seen color, so to speak. I see beautiful people. I see that every human being has value. When I was a teenager— I grew up with a cleft lip and palate; I still have it. And the person who was my doctor was Jewish, so outside of our culture, outside of our faith. If she walked into my office right now, I would bow down and thank her, because she gave me the ability to speak. I don’t think about “my Jewish doctor”; I think about “my hero doctor.” She happens to be Jewish—who cares?

There are people like the young man who helps in the altar. I don’t think about “my African American altar server.” I’m like: there’s a great guy who comes early every Sunday morning and we pray together in the altar and it’s just wonderful. If we could get to a place like that, where we just welcome everybody because they have value and we want everyone to make it to salvation, I think we’re doing something. I think we also have to be sensitive that there are people who are insensitive, and just try and gently correct those people. The Church is for all the nations, all the people. We open the door. Jesus hung out with everybody. He went— When people thought that the Jews were the chosen people, to go outside with the Gentiles, they thought he was crazy. He said this is for everybody. Everybody: the Jews, the Gentiles. This is for the Greeks, the non-Greeks. Everybody: this is for them.

Fr. Alex: Right. Jesus interacted with the Samaritans, which were a despised group. St. Paul tells us about “neither Greek nor Jew, neither male nor female,” so there’s really been an openness that’s been provided for us from the earliest days of our Church. It’s been a blessing speaking with Fr. Stavros; our topic: “A Perspective on Inter-Racial and Inter-Ethnic Relationships,” meaning not just the marriage that Fr. Stavros is in, but how we relate in general as a parish to those outside of our Church. Thank you, Fr. Stavros, for joining us.

Fr. Stavros: Thank you, Fr. Alex. God be with you.