Fr. Alex Goussetis: Welcome to Family Matters. My name is Fr. Alex Goussetis, and I’m speaking today with Justine Hoff. Our topic is “Considering Marital Separation and Divorce.” Justine is a licensed marriage and family therapist, an Orthodox Christian based out of Sacramento, California. She’s been in the mental health field for around nine years. Her passion is serving the Orthodox community through the integration of faith and psychology, particularly for Orthodox women struggling in their marriages.

Justine grew up loving God in a supportive Evangelical community, and came to the Orthodox faith five years ago. She holds a master’s of marital and family therapy from Western Seminary, and has a background in communication studies, community mental health, and creative arts. Her goal is to serve as the hands, feet, and mouthpiece of Christ in a way that is professional and competent. Her baptismal name is Anna, after the mother of the Theotokos, because they are both committed to serving marriages and families. Welcome, Justine!

Ms. Justine Hoff: Thank you! Thanks for having me, Father.

Fr. Alex: So let me cover just a couple of bullet points, just as a means of introduction and to at least set the table for our conversation. We’re all familiar with the statistics as they relate to separation and divorce. The percentage of marriages that end in divorce in the US varies from 40 to 50%. The second bullet point, cohabitation before marriage, is not the answer either. This statistic really stuck out to me. Listen to this: there is a 20% chance that the first marriage results in divorce within five years. In comparison, couples who cohabitate for five years have a 49% chance of separating. Next bullet point, let’s not think that the statistics for Orthodox Christians are much better. Take a close look at the registry of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese for a real wake-up call. And then, finally, the Center for Family Care has produced a large inventory of podcasts, webinars, videos, and articles on ways to strengthen marriages, but at the same time we need to address the issue before us in this podcast, so let’s tread lightly.

Justine, as a therapist, what types of unhealthy behaviors in a marriage would raise red flags for you?

Ms. Hoff: Yeah, that’s such a good question. One of the things I want to start with is I don’t recall what the book is— Actually, I think it’s called The Good News About Marriage. It gives some encouraging perspective on not only is marriage doable, but there’s so much hope for it; that the majority of marriages actually last a lifetime, and around 80% of couples report that they are happy in their marriages. Most marriages can be— most marriage problems can be solved by simple adjustments, so there’s a lot of hope even though, yeah, we know a lot of daunting statistics, and those things are real. Couples come up against a lot of things, and there is so much hope and there are so many resources, I would say just increasingly so, not just for couples in general, but also here in the Church, which is so encouraging. I know you shared some of the work and ministry that you have for that.

As far as some red flags… So what I like to… How I explain it is I like to think in terms of yellow flags and red flags. There may be some things that are yellow flags that mean “Hey, this is a good thing to check in on; this is a good thing to seek some help,” because you don’t want it to turn into a bigger item. Some things that would be yellow flags could be differences in spiritual practices, sex, in-laws, boundaries with the opposite sex, parenting, having children, things from your past; issues from your past start to come up. That’s something that’s good to talk about, to reach out [for] help.

Red flags are anything that pose danger or risks. These are things that are going to need immediate attention. Safety or sanity are becoming a concern. And then I’ll probably touch on these a little bit more later, but the four As, that’s kind of easy to remember them: addictions, abuse, abandonment, adultery. Any time where there’s deceit or loss of trust is where I consider or encourage people to think about in terms of that when to start looking for some help.

Fr. Alex: So hopefully—I mean, we’ll talk about this a little more later, but whether we’re in the yellow or the red, there’s still the hope that we can address these, and maybe like a weed before it’s too much grounded in, perhaps we can pull it up before it becomes too grounded, but these are good categories to consider in terms of “is this something that requires a check-in, or is this something that is a very serious obstacle regarding our faith and regarding our marriage?” So when should a spouse consider separation? When we get to that point, that fork in the road, how do we discern that?

Ms. Hoff: Yeah. Gosh. I think a lot of times in our culture, we consider separation as a precursor to divorce. I remember hearing it said that Christians should be quick to separate, slow to divorce. Here’s why. Once couples have a break from the tension, once they have been pushed so far and they finally get a little taste of freedom, it’s very hard to go back. It’s very, very, very hard. And so separations should always been seen as “we are trading time that we would be arguing, wrapped up in conflicts, spinning our wheels going nowhere; we are trading that time to focus individually on whatever it is we need to do.” Maybe you’re both deep in therapy, great. While still seeing your marriage therapist, you’re working to address spiritual issues with your priest, with your spiritual father or mother. You are tending to yourself for a set amount of time, and whoever it is that you’re working with—and you should be working very closely with at least someone if not multiple, a team of people, to help you navigate that time, so it has a time limit—you know exactly what changes need to happen before you come back, so it’s not this endless abyss of “well, I’m sick of you; I’m leaving”: why and to what extent. That would be the first thing I would say about that.

And then what I want to add to that is, well, okay, who are these people whom we would involve in a decision like this? What I encourage folks to— The question to ask themselves is what I am going to say in the spirit of honoring God and my marriage. When you ask yourself that question, the answer may be: “Okay, I need to bite my tongue and curb this. This is not a good time to just gossip about my husband or my wife or whatever.” It could also mean “I need the courage to say something, to break the silence here, because I know that this isn’t right. I know that this isn’t okay.” A lot of times… Marriage is a beautiful thing, and it can also be an isolating thing, because oftentimes we don’t know what’s going on in other people’s marriages. We may have been familiar with our parents’ marriage, or aunties and uncles and things like that, because of how we grew up, but that doesn’t mean we necessarily know what’s normal or healthy or even what’s common.

You want to have a really small accountability group of folks who are for you, for your spouse, and for your marriage. So that can look like people that you would really trust. Your priest could be a good one. If you have marriage sponsors or a mentor couple that you really trust who have a thriving marriage, and you want them to rub off on you. A marriage therapist, another therapist, whatever. Folks who, again, thinking in terms of who’s going to be for you guys being well and for your marriage being well, those would be good folks.

And you keep it small. This is not going to be the whole family. This is going to be a small team of people where you can be very frank, you can be very honest, you can ask questions about all these topics that I just touched on, and know that they can help you navigate what next steps to do. And I would also say if you ask someone or bring it up to someone and they don’t give you a good response, maybe they’re just not equipped to know how to handle that, or they don’t have experience in that. Okay, that’s okay. Ask another person, because what you’ll start to see is you’ll start to see consistency and just support for what you know is right. For example, if somebody doesn’t get the degree of maybe abuse that you’re experiencing—they just don’t get it—ask somebody else, and then ask another person. You’ll start to see things align with what you know to be right. If someone’s like: “Oh, just go back, and you guys should go to a marriage retreat”—no! No, no, no. If you’re having abuse, please don’t take the advice of going on a marriage retreat. Someone might say, “Ooh, let’s talk about a safety plan,” and someone else might say, “Ooh, this is something you maybe need to bring aware to your priest in a different way.” So keep asking and keep that circle tight: people who are for you and for your marriage, and who are also willing to honor God and honor your marriage in those ways, if that makes sense.

Fr. Alex: Yeah, let me touch on a few of these points, just for my own clarification. You first said, “Quick to separation, slow to divorce.” My sense in hearing that is to make it a purposeful separation, not a drifting.

Ms. Hoff: Yes.

Fr. Alex: Would that be accurate?

Ms. Hoff: Absolutely, and because a lot of times it’s the opposite. People are like: “Augh! This is too hard” or whatever, and they go… And then they just wander. To what? And a lot of times it can end up just in divorce.

Fr. Alex: So it needs direction; it needs some kind of focus, so that we’re utilizing this time in a healthy way and not just, you know, rudderless.

Ms. Hoff: Yeah. “Drift” was a good word, Father; that’s exactly it. And have help. Have somebody that’s in there with you, helping you navigate that: your therapist or somebody who gets it and can maybe help you.

Fr. Alex: Yeah, that led me to the other point that you made, about networking, connection, communication, clarification, accountability. Those were words that kind of jumped out as you were speaking, whether it is a priest, a sponsor, or a mentor, but in other words, bringing some other key people in to help this stay within, without it getting out of hand. Would that be accurate?

Ms. Hoff: Yeah! Yes, absolutely. And there’s… What do Scriptures say? There’s safety in a number of counselors, because the goal, again, why that question’s so important: “What am I going to say in the spirit of God, honoring my marriage?” because you don’t want to be gossipy, but a lot of times people don’t speak up, and they really ought to be. And I think it’s important, and, Father, I’m sure you can touch on this as well, is that idea of you don’t want— someone may not speak up because they want to be a good spouse or they don’t want to be gossipy or they want to protect their spouse’s honor or integrity or whatever. Here’s where that can become problematic, is what if you are becoming a barrier to their salvation in a sense of where it’s going from “I am guarding your honor” to “I am enabling you to continue in this sin that is not only harming you, but it’s harming me as your spouse; it’s harming your children by proxy.” You have this whole show honoring marriages and families because marriages and families are powerful. Marriages and families are so important, and so if a marriage or a family is hurting, by default other people are going to be experiencing that and feeling that.

Another thing on that, if I may, that I wanted to touch on is this idea of tolerable versus intolerable sin. Maybe this can help clarify that a little bit as well. Father, I’m sure you’re familiar with Drs. Cloud and Townsend; they have a book called Boundaries. One of the things they talk about that I really love is they point to King David; in the Scripture he has— there’s a psalm where he is basically just declaring the types of character, like the characteristics of someone’s character, that he is just not willing to tolerate: liars and the unjust, murderers, slanderers, things like this. And he then says, “This is because I love the justice and purity and integrity of God, and I want to honor him.”

And why that’s important is there is a difference between sin that is tolerable—that kind of goes to that idea of self-sacrifice and “I’m covering for you because you are a broken human just as I am, but we’re in a marriage together”—a difference between that and intolerable sin that is not allowing your spouse to move forward in holiness and sanctification in a way, or you. God doesn’t want to see you in a position where his glory is not able to fully radiate from you guys. If there’s so much brokenness and emotional, mental, spiritual disease that is going on between the two of you, that’s not going to be glorifying to him, and he doesn’t want to see you, either one of you, rot in a sense and hurt your children. He wants to see you whole and well.

And as the Church, I love this—you mentioned I’m a convert; it’s true—I love this idea of cleansing that we do so often, with— not even just with the idea of baptism, but with repentance. We’re very aware that we have sin that is plaguing us, and we have an awareness of that. Not only that, we take ownership of that. It’s not just “Whoops, sorry!” but it’s “Augh! I see this struggle. God, help me. Lord, have mercy on me.” Sometimes being a good spouse is removing barriers that would keep your spouse from really facing the music in some ways and really dealing with those things that are not honoring to themselves, not honoring to God, and certainly not honoring to your marriage.

Fr. Alex: Just following up on that tolerable versus intolerable, I think the Church speaks to this in other ways, or in a parallel way. Tolerable is a close connection to sacrifice, self-sacrifice. And we comment always or often when we offer these marriage podcasts and webinars that during the wedding sacrament, there are the crowns that both the bride and groom wear, and they’re crowns of martyrdom, of death to my self-will, for the sacrifice of the good of the other person. So that would be kind of a tolerable thing, that we’re willingly and joyfully doing.

And in regard to intolerable, the Church in her mercy permits divorce. It doesn’t encourage it, it’s not something we promote, but there is the reality that, if it gets to something that is so abusive or so intolerable, that in the mercy of the Church we permit divorce so that there can be a return to wholeness and continue our journey. So I think that language does resonate with the language of the Church.

One other thing that I just would share from years of ministry and counseling couples who are very much struggling and considering separation and divorce, I often will say, “Do everything you can to try to resolve this, understand yourself better, understand your spouse better, so if this— if the outcome is divorce, and it may be, at least you can look yourself in the mirror and say, ‘I really did the best I could,’ or be able to face your children and say, ‘You know what, I really did the best we could, and this is the end result.’ ” At least that’s something maybe within your conscience you can consider, but unfortunately we live in such a disposable society that we move so quickly through that, that “I’m not being satisfied” or “I’m not getting what I want,” and then we immediately go to the exit ramp.

That’s something I just would encourage our listeners as well, that marriage is hard work—there’s no question about that; it takes a lot of effort and investment—but if you are thinking about leaving, at least have that understanding of “let’s do the best I can,” because if we don’t, we’re probably going to repeat the same pattern in our next relationship, so that’s another reason to kind of look really carefully, because if not, we’re quickly getting out of this one, but we’re going to find our self in another similar circumstance probably the next time out.

So these are pretty heavy information and data that we’re talking about, Justine. Just so that we can leave on a positive note, what are some healthy expressions of marriage that couples can build on?

Ms. Hoff: Yeah, what a good question! These three points here I want to share with your listeners, I actually got them from a really good book by author Leslie Vernick; it’s called The Emotionally [Destructive] Marriage. I would encourage your listeners to check it out. She’s a Christian social worker. But she mentions three things, because it’s one thing to point out things that are bad or wrong, and that’s important, because sometimes we don’t want to call good “bad” and bad “good,” but then there’s this point, too: these things are destructive and harmful and against the heart and will of God. Here are things that are good and healthy, and it’s important to see the contrast between the two, because, again, I think that will really resonate in the heart of someone who is truly seeking, like you just described, Father, of “I don’t want to make any decisions out of haste or flippantly, because I take my marriage seriously, and I’m really in a bind or I’m really at a crossroads of what to do.”

So the three points here that I’ll touch on, the first one is mutuality. Mutuality, where both individuals contribute specific qualities essential for the care, maintenance, or repair of the relationship. These include character traits like honesty, being caring, respectful, taking responsibility, and being repentant. There’s a really good quote by Tim Keller, who says, “The Christian teaching on marriage does not offer a choice between fulfillment and sacrifice, but rather mutual fulfillment through mutual sacrifice.” That kind of reminds me about what you had just talked about.

The second one, reciprocity: this is where both people in the relationship both give and receive. This is big; I see this a lot with a lot of couples that I’m working with that are maybe not even thinking about separation or divorce, but it’s like one person is kind of carrying the majority of the load, and it’s not really fun for anybody. Control and responsibility are shared in reciprocity. There’s a balance. There’s not one spouse receiving all the goodies and another who sacrificially does all the work. There’s a give and take with regards to roles, expectations, and individual strengths and weaknesses. An imbalance of this can be very, very dangerous. I mean, the health—mental, emotional, physical—can break down one spouse; probably in both, but if one is overburdened and overworked… Monopolizing money in an abusive situation can be another one. I’ve seen that before, and that was terrifying. So that would be the second one, reciprocity.

The third one is freedom. In your marriage, you are allowed to make choices, to give input, and express your feelings without fearing that you’ll be badgered, manipulated, or punished. When freedom is present, you’re not afraid to be yourself, nor are you pressured to be something you’re not. Being unified and of one mind means living together for a common purpose and goal, which is the kingdom and glory of God.

Those would be the three things that I would encourage folks to really dig into, and, again, remembering those positive statistics. I do think the book is called The Good News About Marriage. I think it was a Christian researcher and a secular researcher: they were going to write an article on marriage, and ended up finding out a lot of the statistics that we know, like the whole “divorce rate is 50%, 60%, 70%, 80%”—it’s always going up every year by ten percent—a lot of that is based off of speculation and assumptions. Marriage, overall, is doing well and is a good thing, and I would encourage everyone to remember that marriage is a gift from God, but God loves you so much more than your marriage. He loves you in your marriage.

We have an enemy out there who hates it, we have a culture that is against it, but marriage is good. You can do it. Don’t be afraid to ask for help. Know whom you can reach out to, and don’t be afraid to ask for help, even for good things. You can have your small accountability group to ask for help for good things as well, just to make tweaks; that’s wonderful. I know again the Church has a lot of good resources for that, for folks who are maybe not considering separation but just want some help with some basic things going on.

Fr. Alex: Justine, thank you for offering really a very balanced message for our listeners in terms of some of the yellow flags, red flags, things to be concerned about, because marriage does have its challenging points, but also offering a lot of encouragement, some positive things to build on. I think it’s going to be well received by our listeners. Justine Hoff, thank you for joining us today. Thank you for your ministry. Look forward to talking with you again in the future.

Ms. Hoff: Thank you. God bless you.