Mr. Paul Karos: Welcome back, everybody, to Person to Person. And, Harry, welcome from Thessaloniki. How are you doing?

Dr. Harry Boosalis: Pretty good. Always nice to see you, Paul.

Mr. Karos: And you, too.

Dr. Boosalis: And your smiling face.

Mr. Karos: I can’t wait to be there in person at some point. Maybe we’ll get another pilgrimage to the Holy Mountain, God willing. I miss being there with you. Well, we have a new topic to delve into, and this is going to be many, many sessions. I think this is going to be a great topic. It’s going to be all about prayer. What is prayer? What isn’t prayer? How do we pray? And our deep, deep tradition.

We see this movement in our country on meditation and mindfulness, and all these terms that people are trying to come up with to really express this deep need in the soul. What I’ve really been struck with, Harry, from our work together is just how our ancient tradition—we are the Church of prayer—just how much we have to offer the world on this topic. Do you mind just getting us started on this topic? I don’t know how many sessions prayer will go, but we’re going to take our time and really go through this topic in depth. Why don’t you get us started on prayer?

Dr. Boosalis: Well, now, prayer. What is prayer, Paul? How would you define prayer?

Mr. Karos: I guess I would define it as talking to God.

Dr. Boosalis: Talking to God? Is that how we would define prayer? Talking to Jesus? [Laughter] Do you know how to pray? Do you know how to pray, Paul?

Mr. Karos: I’m learning! I’m learning!

Dr. Boosalis: You’re learning. Are you saying you don’t know how to pray?

Mr. Karos: No, I think I’m— I think yes and no. Yes, I do have a prayer rule and a prayer practice, but I don’t know— I’m definitely not— I’ve got way, way, way more growth to do to grow in prayer, that’s for sure.

Dr. Boosalis: Do you learn things you still have never thought about? Prayer, it’s pretty deep. The point is: Do we know how to pray? The apostles themselves asked the Lord: “Teach us to pray! We don’t know how to pray, Lord!” And what did the Lord say? What did the Lord teach them?

Mr. Karos: “When you pray, pray like this: Our Father, who art in heaven…” Boom, boom, boom.

Dr. Boosalis: He taught them the Lord’s Prayer.

Mr. Karos: “Go in your closet,” he said, “and pray in secret to your heavenly Father.”

Dr. Boosalis: How about St. Paul, the great apostle? He confesses, he, too—he did not know how he was supposed to pray. He writes, “For we do not know what we should pray for, as we ought, but the Spirit himself makes intercessions for us.”

Mr. Karos: Oh, wow.

Dr. Boosalis: And how about our Lord himself? Doesn’t he give us the greatest example of all, of someone who truly prays? The gospels are full of examples showing Christ, our Lord, God himself, at prayer, especially at the crucial moments of his life, like when he calls the twelve apostles, at his Transfiguration, at the garden of Gethsemane. I have all these quotes—I won’t share them—from Scripture.

Mr. Karos: Oh, go ahead!

Dr. Boosalis: Really?

Mr. Karos: Sure! I think so, because I think this point— And to answer your earlier question, in my experience, in my own life, in my family’s lives, our friends, people in the parish, and when I go lead retreats— I really believe, and I think our listeners will probably agree with this, that it is a very small percentage of us that have a regular prayer rule of some kind. And the prayer for all of us— And I hope by the end of these sessions that we’re all encouraged to start beefing it up a little bit. Not that people don’t pray—I think people pray all the time. Maybe in the shower, on the way to work, all kinds of places, which is all good. But in terms of actually doing what you’re going to read us about Christ, I’m sure: taking the time, to actually set aside time to commune with our Lord, I think this is a huge area of opportunity in the Church broadly. That’s just my gut feeling.

Dr. Boosalis: It’s the greatest thing you can do as a human being, to withdraw, separate yourself, and to pray to God. Do you realize that? So here’s our Lord, before he calls the twelve apostles, the gospel writes: “And it came to pass in those days that he went out to the mountain to pray.” The Lord loved to go to mountains to pray. “And continued all night in prayer to God.”

Mr. Karos: He did an all-night vigil! The Lord did an all—!

Dr. Boosalis: “And when it was day, he called his disciples to himself, and from them he chose twelve, whom he also named apostles.” Yes, it was an all-night vigil. Before naming and choosing the twelve: wasn’t that an important moment or occasion? It was to Christ.

At his Transfiguration, the gospel writes— At the Transfiguration: “Now it came to pass that he took Peter, John, and James, and went up to the mountain to pray (again). As he prayed, the appearance of his face was altered, and his robe became white and glistening.” It took place during prayer, the Transfiguration.

And then in the garden of Gethsemane, the quote is this:

And being in agony, he prayed more earnestly. Then his sweat became like great drops of blood falling down to the ground. When he rose up from prayer and had come to his disciples, he found them sleeping from sorrow. Then he said to them, “Why do you sleep? Rise and pray, lest you enter into temptation.”

Mr. Karos: Oh my gosh! This is really powerful! If the God-man was this focused on his prayer, his prayer life, it is our calling. I mean, this is a— and not just to do it haphazardly, but to actually take some time, whatever we can start with, to take some time to begin to pray. Wow. Those are very powerful.

Dr. Boosalis: Not only take some time, but you know what the apostles—? For the apostles and prayer, they were praying continuously, ceaselessly! We’re talking about trying to find five minutes. In the book of Acts, the apostles are shown devoting themselves to prayer. We read: “But we will give ourselves continually to prayer and to the ministry of the word.” And the apostles, they constantly encourage us to pray. And again Paul: “to pray without ceasing.”

Mr. Karos: That’s St. Paul.

Dr. Boosalis: “Rejoice always. Pray without ceasing. In everything, give thanks. Be watchful in your prayers.”

Mr. Karos: You know, I remember one of the monks at the Holy Mountain telling us that your whole life becomes prayer, that the pray unceasingly is because your whole life becomes prayer: the way you interact with others, the way you do your work, the way that you’re— It’s kind of that idea that our whole life becomes a form of prayer, some good, some not so good. But it’s really— But, having said that, it’s hard to even go down that way of life, to pray unceasingly, if we’re not stopping to have some silence, some hesychia, some silence, and to do what the Lord did: to go to the mountain. It doesn’t have to be the mountain; it could be our room, or close the door in our room, like he says. So don’t we have to start there and let it grow to be continually praying, pray without ceasing, or what?

Dr. Boosalis: Yes. Yes, definitely. And there’s this constant prayer. But think about, in the life of the Church, we have the scriptural foundation of Christ and the apostles, but how about within the life of our holy Church? Our Church life is characterized by constant, continuous prayer, if you think about it. Our Church prescribes particular prayers, Paul, for nearly event, almost any occasion within the daily life of man, if you think about it. We have morning prayers and evening prayers. You pray before meals; you pray after meals. You pray for the birth of a newborn baby; you pray for the departure of the soul from the body at death. You pray for the living; you pray for the dead. There’s prayers before Communion, prayers after Communion. The Lord’s Prayer, the Jesus Prayer. We ask for the prayers of Panagia. We have particular patron saints, Paul, whose prayers are sought for and sought out for specific circumstances and occasions and events.

Mr. Karos: We have the hours of prayer, the first— midnight office, first, third, sixth, ninth. Vespers, compline— Woo!

Dr. Boosalis: All day is prayer. Our priests have special liturgical books that contain all the particular prayers of our Church. It’s called the Mega Euchologian in Greek; in English I think it’s The [Great] Book of Needs, and it lists all the diverse yet sometimes very specific prayers and blessings relating to all the various occasions that affect almost all of our aspects of our daily life. Isn’t that amazing?

Mr. Karos: Oh, that’s just powerful. This is the richness of our ancient, unbroken chain faith and tradition that Christ delivered to the apostles and the apostles to us. Through those prayers that have survived all these centuries, that’s really a way of life, isn’t it?

Dr. Boosalis: It’s the same prayers you’re reciting as from the ancient Church, Paul. Think of the connection, the direct link of holy Tradition. You’re reciting the same prayers, the same scriptural readings. It really is amazing.

Mr. Karos: It’s really amazing! Your point there is that not only scripturally, through the example of Christ and the apostles, you’re saying that even the way it’s worked out in the tradition and the life of the Church is full of prayer and prayers.

Dr. Boosalis: Yes, the Church is prayer, one great epiklesis, one great invocation. The Church is prayer, isn’t it?

Mr. Karos: Mm-hm. Wow.

Dr. Boosalis: So, Paul, what does prayer do for you, then? Why should you do it? Why is it important to you? What good is it? Why should you pray? How does it help you, really?

Mr. Karos: Well, I mean, for me, I just think— And we’re talking here all forms of prayer, then, not just my prayer rule?

Dr. Boosalis: Generally, generally, yeah.

Mr. Karos: I mean, for me, it allows me to open my heart to the Lord, to look at myself for the things that I need to repent and really work on, try to change in my life. It also, for me, allows me to experience his love for me, so that I don’t get too despaired or too down, that it’s going to be okay. It just allows me to refocus my life on him and not just on myself and on my own concern and my own desires, accomplishments I’m hoping that I’ll do or whatever it might be. I guess it’s multifaceted for myself.

Dr. Boosalis: Yeah, it’s multifaceted. It’s inner retrospection. It’s not just praying for something or for someone; there’s other elements in your prayer there, rather than just supplication.

Mr. Karos: Right. No, a big part of it, I think—and this gets to that, in our last podcast on love for all mankind, on love for others, enemies—I do think that getting peace, that the Lord loves us, and that we are his precious child frees us to love other people, because if we’re really constantly questioning if we’re even loved by God, that causes all kinds of turmoil in our soil. It blocks our ability to love others, because we don’t even feel loved by God himself. So prayer, for me, a big part is just to thank him for his love and to actually experience that he does love me, but it’s humbling because we’re unworthy of that love. Yeah, so I don’t know; that’s a ramble.

Dr. Boosalis: Well, it’s interesting how the word “prayer” is used today.

Mr. Karos: Okay, you talk about it, because I’ve got some thoughts here, too. How do you think it’s used today?

Dr. Boosalis: “A wing and a prayer.” “You better say your prayers, buddy.” That’s it. One seminarian wife— I was giving a talk and said, “What is prayer?” and one wife jokingly said, “A last resort.” [Laughter] Isn’t prayer a last resort for a lot of people?

Mr. Karos: Yeah, when I’m really hurting, absolutely.

Dr. Boosalis: And we ask God for help.

Mr. Karos: Yep, like David in the psalms.

Dr. Boosalis: But what is prayer? What can we find for prayer, an Orthodox definition? We’re talking about prayer. We say our prayers. We have all these prayers we recite throughout the day. Many of us still find a difficult time for finding a definition for prayer.

Mr. Karos: Yeah, and can I throw in one more thing about the society? because I think this is important. The society also is pursuing prayer, but they won’t call it prayer. It’s almost like it’s—

Dr. Boosalis: [Gasp] You’re right!

Mr. Karos: So what is— There’s this huge movement over the last few years over this mindfulness movement, which has some good in it, of course, because it silents people down, it calms people down, there’s breathing techniques, meditation, all these things. Of course, these are all void of Christ, though, and void of the Holy Spirit. But so I think there’s a movement in our society with either mental illness or the craziness of the culture that people are innately knowing they need something that connects them with otherworldliness, but it is not directly being focused on Christ, so it’s empty in that way. So you can see the natural, innate desire for this connection that people are— And, again, there’s some good in that, obviously. At least it’s starting people to think about it. But it really— It’s not Christ-based.

Dr. Boosalis: We were created to commune with God. If we’re not doing it properly, we’re going to see other forms of communion or other beings out there to commune with.

Mr. Karos: Wow, yeah. Okay, so you were about to get to the definition of prayer. I didn’t want to interrupt, because I think that’s important that we’re aware that those things that we’re seeing out there, that they sound kind of exciting and exotic, but they really are empty to their core. But that can be— If that causes us to draw toward Christ, may it be, but going down those paths can be very dangerous for us, to be aware. They sound exotic, that they’re going to change people, this and that, but really to focus it back with Christ is critical.

Dr. Boosalis: Oh interesting! That’s helpful. Here’s how a secular definition. Oxford English Dictionary. I looked up “prayer”: “A solemn and humble request to God; a supplication, petition, or thanksgiving.” And interestingly it adds: “Usually expressed in words.” So while the secular definition is helpful, Paul, to a certain degree, referring to themes—it’s a request, a supplication, petition, thanksgiving. We won’t deny that. Still, it seems that important Orthodox elements are missing, because, as we will see, an Orthodox understanding of prayer goes deeper and offers a much more profound perspective. For example, Elder Zacharias from Essex, he writes; he says again—look at this—“Prayer is a matter of love.” I didn’t see love in the secular definition.

Mr. Karos: Wow!

Dr. Boosalis: Listen to what he says. “Man expresses love through prayer, and if we pray, it is an indication that we love God,” he says. “And if we do not pray, this indicates that we do not love God. For the measure of our prayer is the measure of our love for God.”

Mr. Karos: Oh, wow. Kyrie, eleison.

Dr. Boosalis: Do you feel as convicted as I do?

Mr. Karos: Oh, man! Three times: Lord, have mercy! Lord, have mercy on us, Lord. May we pray more lovingly.

Dr. Boosalis: So this perspective of prayer as a measure of one’s love for God also reflected in The Ladder of Divine Ascent by St. John Climacus, he shares the following analogy. He says— Although it’s intended for a monk, we can still apply it to our lives here. He says, “War reveals the love of a soldier for his king, and the time and practice of prayer show a monk’s love for God.” So your prayer shows where you stand.

Mr. Karos: Wow! You know what, and the spiritual life is a war. There’s no question. It’s a constant war, so that’s actually very relevant. Of course, we’re not monks and nuns, but it’s the same idea, that it’s a reflection of our loyalty to our King. Oh, wow. Yeah.

Dr. Boosalis: Here’s one more from the Philokalia, St. Mark the Ascetic. He says, “Undistracted prayer is a sign of love for God, but careless or distracted prayer is a sign of love for pleasure.” So, Paul, you obviously don’t get very distracted when you pray, do you?

Mr. Karos: [Laughter] Oh, I’m all over the place!

Dr. Boosalis: You!? You, Paul? You’ve never been distracted when you pray in church! Your mind never wandered!

Mr. Karos: You know the logismoi, it’s really interesting how lots of things can distract us. And for you and people with eyesight in church, I know from talking to people that the distractions can just be visual a lot of times: looking at people or what people are wearing or who’s walking in. Okay, I don’t have those. I can’t see any people any more and I can’t see what people look like, for several years now. But—and I’ve talked to my spiritual father about this—Satan, man, he just goes after the thoughts instead! I don’t know, it might be worse! It might be worse, because he just attacks and attacks, so I get distracted all the time. All the time, and I can’t even see!

Dr. Boosalis: We forget to pray, we neglect to pray, we just get plain lazy, we procrastinate to pray. “I can put it off till later, right? God’s going to be there. No rush. Wait till tomorrow.” So do we even try to live a life of prayer, Paul? Can we say that we have a prayer life? Do we even really want one? I don’t know. We manage to set time aside to exercise our body, but do we find the time to exercise our soul? We’re so concerned, Paul, about our social life, our night life, our family life. What about our prayer life? What about our lives of prayer or our love for God and our love for our fellow man that’s expressed and made manifest? That’s why we were created was for prayer. Now look how hard it is for us. It shows our fallenness, doesn’t it?

Mr. Karos: Oh, does it ever.

Dr. Boosalis: The depth of our fallen nature.

Mr. Karos: You know, it’s funny. To this point, I haven’t now worked for a few years, professionally, and doing ministry things, but this type of ministry work has much more flexibility in the hours. I was better at having the regular time of day when I had a work schedule and had to be at work at whatever—seven o’clock in the morning, so I’d do the prayer beforehand. When you have the temptation of distraction, it takes a lot more self-discipline to actually make sure you do your prayer, because otherwise everything else takes— It’s the procrastination, the laziness of not— It’s very powerful, yeah.

So I think to your question, though, Harry, I do think why this is going to be such a valuable series. We’re actually coming to the close of this introductory time on prayer, this first one, but we’re going to do many sessions on this, because I do believe in our country and in the life of the Church that this is a big challenge for our faithful and for all people, to actually really take seriously their prayer life. Maybe this can be a seed, through these sessions, God willing, through the things you’ll be teaching us on prayer, from the Fathers and the Scriptures, that maybe it can be the seed for us to begin: to begin to develop and grow a prayer life.

Do you have any final comments before we wrap up today? We’ll get right back into it in our next session on prayer.

Dr. Boosalis: No, I think that’s a nice job, Paul. Thank you. You did well.

Mr. Karos: All right, Harry. God bless you. And, everybody, we’ll be diving right back into prayer on the next episode of Person to Person.