Dr. Eugenia Constantinou: In the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit. Amen.

Illumine our hearts, O Master who loves mankind, with the pure light of thy divine knowledge, and open the eyes of our minds to understand thy Gospel teachings. Implant in us also the fear of thy blessed commandments that, trampling down our carnal desires, we may enter upon a spiritual manner of living, both thinking and doing such things that are well-pleasing to thee. For thou art the illumination of our souls and bodies, O Christ our God, and to thee we ascribe glory, together with thy Father who is from everlasting, and thine all-holy and good and life-giving Spirit, now and ever and unto the ages of ages. Amen.

Welcome, dear brothers and sisters, to Search the Scriptures Live. I’m Dr. Jeannie Constantinou. It’s March 13, 2023. This is Episode 200 of Search the Scriptures Live. I’m going to sound a little funny tonight, because I have some laryngitis and because we’re having some technical difficulties and I’m having to— We’re running the program through the telephone. I’m talking to you through a telephone, not through the usual system. We couldn’t figure out what was wrong with the system.

But anyhow I just wanted to remind you about a couple of things. In two weeks, on March 27, we’re going to have a special 15th anniversary show for Search the Scriptures Live. They will be about the 357th episode I have done for Ancient Faith of Search the Scriptures and Search the Scriptures Live. I’m hoping that you— We’ll have a few people calling in who also have live shows and also inviting the rest of you, the listeners, to call in on that night, just to say hello if you’d like. You know the number: it’s 855-237-2346. And you could call us even if you don’t normally listen live, because I think most people do not.

A couple of weeks ago, I was in New York City for the Eric Metaxas program that he has called “Socrates in the City.” And it was a beautiful evening. He interviewed me about The Crucifixion of the King of Glory book. He’s always very funny and very gracious, very supportive. I really appreciate him talking about the book so much. He really loves the book. And some wonderful friends of Search the Scriptures came. Some of them came from Chicago just for that to Manhattan. It was so nice; I was so touched. Another couple came from Washington, D.C. That’s much closer, but still it’s quite a drive.

And also Fr. Eugene Pappas came with some parishioners. He has the parish of Three Hierarchs in Brooklyn, New York. He also interviewed me for the radio program that he does there on public radio weekly in New York City about the book.

Eric had some friends who came down from the Greek Orthodox parish in Danbury, Connecticut. He was very happy that there were lots and lots of Greeks there. It was a beautiful evening.

Before that, I was in Flushing for the service of forgiveness, and afterwards we talked about temptations, one of Fr. Costas’ really great subjects. I talked about temptations in a beautiful program that the young adults of Flushing, New York, organized. I was very grateful to them.

And then for the first Presanctified Divine Liturgy there in Flushing, New York, after the Eric Mataxas “Socrates in the City” program, I was speaking about almsgiving, according to St. John Chrysostom there in Flushing. I don’t think the “Socrates in the City” program interview has posted yet, but when it does I will put it on my Facebook page, and I’ll try to sort of keep you folks apprised of what’s happening.

On my website, which is DrJeannie.com—d-r-j-e-a-n-n-i-e-dot-com—if you join my mailing list, I’m going to start sending out some sort of notifications about where I’m going to be, what I’m doing, and also when these things get posted. Also you can get a three-page document about patristic advice on how to read the Scriptures if you join my email list. Just want to give you guys something for free.

So after leaving New York, I went to Charleston, West Virginia, the Cathedral of St. George, Antiochian Cathedral of St. George. Fr. Joseph Hazar has a beautiful parish there. Really enjoyed that. We did a retreat there all day Saturday, and it was just wonderful. I spoke at the Sunday of Orthodoxy after the pan-Orthodox service and really got a chance to spend some very nice time with Father, with [his] really nice wife and three little kids. It’s a big parish and a lot of work, but that’s a very dynamic parish; a very old parish, but a lot of energy there. I think there’s a great future, a continuing great future there in St. George, Charleston, West Virginia. It’s a cathedral. The bishop is normally there—or not normally there, because he travels a lot, of course—but he wasn’t there at the time. I did not get to meet the bishop.

But from there on Tuesday I flew to Pittsburgh and was picked up by this wonderful young priest, Fr. George and Presvytera Becky. She’s not his presvytera: she was his presvytera when he was a little kid, the presvytera at the parish, and her husband inspired him to become a priest. He and his brother are both priests. And they drove me to the Antiochian Village where I was speaking on The Crucifixion of the King of Glory at a clergy family retreat that’s held annually by Metropolitan Savas of the Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh. It was so lovely just seeing all the clergy there, young clergy with their wives, and their kids were running around. It was just great.

I had a chance to spend some time with the clergy, but when I arrived I realized I felt like I was getting a cold, and so I was starting to sound a little throaty like I am right now. One of the first people I met there said, “Where did you come from?” I said, “I came from Charleston, West Virginia.” And he said, “Was the bishop there?” I said, “No, unfortunately, the bishop was not there.” And he said, “Well, that’s good, because I’m the bishop!” [Laughter] It was Bishop Thomas! I was glad. He said, “That would have been bad if the bishop was there, because I was not there.” He was there. He was there at the Antiochian Village also, so that was nice. I didn’t get a chance to talk to him very much. I tried to keep my distance from people so I didn’t give them my cold, so I didn’t interact as much, but everybody was just wonderful.

I was gone for a while, and as you can see, it took a toll on my voice. So I came home very late Thursday night, 11:30 p.m., and Fr. Costa wanted to know about everything that happened. I didn’t want to talk because I needed to save my voice for Saturday, because two days ago on Saturday, I went to Irvine, to St. Paul’s Greek Orthodox Parish, where Fr. Steven Tsichlis is, a wonderful pastor. Philoptochos has an annual retreat and Barbara organized that. It’s just a marvelous parish, very. There’s just so much going on, wonderful clergy, lay theologians, great choir. I just enjoyed it so much and went back on Sunday, even though my voice was not so great. They were very, very gracious and very nice about it. So I said to Fr. Costa, “This morning, this Monday, I think I’d better go to urgent care, because in Saturday I have to be in Georgia, Marietta, Georgia, at the Holy Transfiguration Greek Orthodox Church.” And I also felt I needed some help today, so guess what, folks: Fr. Costa, my better half, my knight in shining armor, my best friend, is with us tonight, and the first thing he said to me when I said I think I should go to urgent care—what did you say, sweetheart? Do you remember?

Fr. Costa Constantinou: Rejoice, good people! I don’t remember. Is this important?

Dr. Constantinou: [Laughter] Yes! It’s so…

Fr. Costa: You’re so busy, you spend very little time with me, and now St. Matthew. Come on!

Dr. Constantinou: I know, but what you said was: “You haven’t brought me a cup of coffee for two weeks. Can you at least bring me a cup of coffee before you go?” [Laughter] So that’s what I did. You remember that?

Fr. Costa: People don’t go and get married for that; they go to Starbucks.

Dr. Constantinou: I know, I know, but it was really cute. He’s been so patient with me being gone so much, and now he’s going to help me out here as we talk about the gospel of Matthew. Anyhow, hopefully you can join us in Marietta, Georgia, if you’re in the Atlanta area this coming Saturday, which is the 18th, I believe. Saturday the 18th, it’s the weekend of the Holy Cross. Two weeks after that, I’m going to be in Dallas, Texas, the Greek Orthodox Church of the Holy Trinity, on April 1, also talking about The King of Glory. I’m sure my voice will be much better then.

Fr. Costa’s right. Let’s talk about the gospel of St. Matthew. Thank you, Father, for helping me out today.

Fr. Costa: Rejoice, dear brothers and sisters! I wish you a wonderful and meaningful Great Lent, which is known for both feelings, haramolipi, joy and sadness at the same time. We don’t have time to explain that right now, but anyway we’ll talk about Matthew. I was hoping we’ll talk a little bit about marriage and divorce, but I guess my wife covered that…

Dr. Constantinou: I forgot where we left off in what I told them, but we’re still going to have plenty to talk about. But anyway, we’re going to begin on verse 33 with the swearing of oaths. That’s kind of an important passage, by the way. So where are we in Matthew’s gospel? We’re still in chapter five. This is lesson 18 on Matthew’s gospel. We’re in chapter five, and this is the section that’s called the Antitheses. You should be able to pronounce that by now: the Antitheses. That means opposite or contrast. Here it is. This is verse 33:

Again, you have heard it was said to the men of old: You shall not swear falsely, but shall perform to the Lord what you have sworn. But I say to you, do not swear at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, or by the earth, for it is his footstool, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. And do not swear by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. Let what you say be simply yes or no. Anything more than this comes from the evil one.

This was a common practice in antiquity, to swear by the gods. But Jesus says we should not do that. Swearing an oath was a very widespread practice among both the Jews and the Greeks, and frankly no transaction, or very few transactions, took place without people swearing. This was also criticized by Greek philosophers who said people should not be swearing; a person’s word should be reliable. And rabbis warned against swearing of careless oaths. When we talk about misusing the name of God, this is one of the things that is considered to be a misuse of the name of God.

So even though this was considered by most people to be harmless, why was it considered a misuse? Because we’re involving God in everyday, ordinary transactions, and we’re minimizing the sacredness of the name of God. People used to swear by the gods in making purchases or sales, really in making sales, because they didn’t have return policies. So today if you go to a store, you say, “Well, what’s your return policy?” and they tell you, or there’s a guarantee for a certain period of time. They didn’t have that. To get people to buy their products, people would swear an oath by the gods. What do you have to say about that, Father?

Fr. Costa: First of all, I would like to say that I disagree with you when it comes to antithesis, because I believe that here Jesus is doing what he promised to do, to fulfill the Law and to perfect it. And this is what the Sermon on the Mount is all about. Most interpreters look at it as an iceberg. It looks small on top, but there is a lot of iceberg below the surface of the water. And that’s a big mistake that the people of the Titanic made when they tried to go next to it. They didn’t realize—

Dr. Constantinou: How big it was.

Fr. Costa: —that they should stop or reverse and go back in reverse. Anyway, the thing is that this is how Jesus is perfecting the Law. So to say antithesis means something contrary to theory, which it’s not. He’s going much, much deeper into the subject. You can see that he is interested in destroying evil from its root. Of course, when it says do not look at a woman, or a man, depending on if you’re a woman or whatever, because you have already committed this sin—

Dr. Constantinou: Lust, looking lustfully.

Fr. Costa: Lust or what have you. You can imagine how deep he goes and how close he comes to our age when pornography is taking over everything. We see everything through screens, and these screens are most of the time evil. We left for a week, and we came back and tried to watch and listen to some of the prayers on YouTube, and before the prayer comes up, a couple of ads, and they’re showing something like 10, 12 naked, half-naked women. This is what they do on their own. We never asked for this! This is why we’re trying to tell you it is very difficult to do that, very difficult to remain clean any more. I feel sorry for everybody who watches TV, especially people on the internet, especially young people on their cell phones and what have you, that it is becoming a world of destruction.

Anyway, when it comes to the oaths, St. Cyril of Alexandria, for instance, says that whoever takes an oath on something makes that an idol. That’s idolatry. They talk about turning the other cheek, and Origen—who is not a Father of the Church, but is a very good theologian, probably one of the best—Origen says that this scandalizes some people who do not understand the reasonings of faith. I know my wife is talking a lot about faith instead of reasoning by reason in everything we say. So to turn the other cheek… It’s one of those things that you cannot reason with.

Dr. Constantinou: Yes, from a human perspective, it’s irrational, absolutely.

Fr. Costa: There’s an anonymous father—we don’t have his name, but it’s an ancient father—who said, “Flee like Joseph without your coat if you believe in a higher justice,” because this is what is going to come. If you believe in worldly or secular justice or what have you, you could be in prison forever, but if you really what real, higher justice, you have to flee from some of these temptations.

And be persistent. I didn’t talk about marriage, but people do not have any patience any more. We come out and say with marriage, I’m leaving my wife, or the wife is leaving her husband, just like that. We have to fight it. Some of the prayers that I’m looking at on YouTube, they say: Let me cease fighting. That’s not the Orthodox way! We fight. This is a spiritual war that has no end, so we cannot stop. We have to fight. This I guess what the Protestants don’t like, our brothers and sisters the Protestants.

Dr. Constantinou: So these are Protestants who have prayers—

Fr. Costa: Including Luther, who was really striving and trying so hard to fight temptations, so in the end he says, like all of them say, “Don’t worry about it. We are saved. We are saved; we don’t really have to try to do anything. We have faith now to do everything, because of the grace of God, because of reasons.” I understand that we should all do—but not because we fear God, even though we should remember fear of God is the first step to wisdom. Fear of God is not a vice; fear of God is a virtue. So keep that in mind. Try to do it because you love God, but still you have to have a little bit of fear of God inside you.

Dr. Constantinou: The Lord even says, “Fear God.” That’s what Jesus says, that we should fear God. It’s not a bad thing.

Fr. Costa: Let me also mention John Calvin.

Dr. Constantinou: Is that about oaths?

Fr. Costa: Yeah.

Dr. Constantinou: Okay.

Fr. Costa: He argued that only oaths counter to God are wrong, and several important Christian groups do not accept these ideas, most notably the Quakers and the Mennonite family reject all oaths.

Dr. Constantinou: Yeah, there are some people who go to trial, and they don’t want to swear on the Bible. They say, “Do you swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?” and they’ll say no, they don’t want to swear. So they’re allowed to affirm that they will tell the truth, because there are many Christians who follow the Lord’s expectation not to swear. That’s why we say, “God willing,” too, because we can’t change a hair on our head.

Fr. Costa: [Inaudible] They really went through persecution by the government.

Dr. Constantinou: Yeah, some of those groups.

Fr. Costa: There are quite a few courts that would allow you not to take an oath, especially on the Bible, but those are only a few courts in only a few countries.

Anyway, Jesus said if you say yes, mean it. And when people know that you mean what you say, nobody’s going to ask you to take an oath. The anonymous father I told you earlier, he said Jesus said to love our enemies, not so for their benefit, but for ours. Those who love their enemies because of what Jesus says will receive extra rewards. And St. John Chrysostom says the same thing about that. St. Hilary of Poitiers says that we imitate Christ who treats everybody the same way.

Dr. Constantinou: You’re going a little bit further, because we’re talking about oaths, and we haven’t gotten to the retaliation part, so hold onto that, because we have a caller.

First of all, Fr. Costa, thank you for mentioning about the Antitheses. I asked everybody to remember that term, because that’s a term that Bible scholars use for this section of Matthew’s gospel because of the way the Lord sets it up: “It says, ‘You shall not commit adultery,’ but I say to you…” So Jesus is saying something different, so that’s why it’s called the Antitheses. You are absolutely right, theologically speaking, it’s not an opposite; it is actually the fulfillment, but in a manner far beyond human logic.

We’re trying to do the best sort of… trying to get messages to the studio, because we’re not properly connected, as I said, but I do know that we have a caller. So who’s calling? Are we ready for our caller?

Justinian: I don’t know. Can you hear me, Presvytera?

Dr. Constantinou: Yes! Who is this?

Justinian: My name is Justinian, and I’m a university student in Nashville, Tennessee.

Dr. Constantinou: Oh, Justinian! Wow, what a name you have, very royal name, Justinian. Nashville, Tennessee: wow, that’s great! So thank you for calling, Justinian.

Justinian: Thank you. First of all, I want to say chronia polla to you, Presvytera, on your fifteenth year of your work with Ancient Faith, and also to Fr. Costa: evlogita; Father, bless. It’s an honor to be on the show.

Fr. Costa: May the Lord bless you with a thousand blessings.

Justinian: Thank you, Father. So, Presvytera, my question is about the Antitheses, because I go to a private Christian institution, and I took a Bible class last semester with a professor who taught many things that seemed contrary, actually, to the Gospel. One of his teachings in the section on the Sermon on the Mount, he said Jesus is really trying to build a fence around the Law, is what the professor says. He’s really just another part of the rabbinic school; he’s giving his thoughts on the Law and trying to get people to follow the Law.

I took that as sort of an insult to the Lord, one, because, as you mention, the Lord is fulfilling the Law. He’s not just commenting on it, as he is the Law-giver. And also it seemed to be a calumny against what Christ is teaching, that it’s actually a higher calling: the law of love is something above the Mosaic law of purity because it’s about our hearts. So I wanted to hear what your comments were about this teaching idea of building a fence around the Law, or some of these things that I may have heard in the classroom here at the university.

Dr. Constantinou: This is so unfortunate, Justinian, that so many professors are teaching this nonsense when it’s in plain letters in front of our face what the Lord said. But they want to minimize it. I’m so glad that you were not influenced by that. Obviously, you already had a firm foundation in what you believed before you took the class, because I have to say as much as it would be wonderful to suggest that people take biblical studies at the university, I never suggest that any person take biblical studies at the university unless they already have a firm foundation, because so many professors virtually destroy people’s faith.

To build a fence around the Torah is a rabbinic technique; it’s a rabbinic statement. They were talking about the rabbinic applications of the Law. Here, he’s taking it far beyond the Law, and that’s clear from what he says. It’s clear that he is claiming authority as God. It was said to men of old—of course he’s talking about Moses. Moses handed down this from the Lord. It’s from the Lord! The Ten Commandments. “The Lord said: You shall not commit adultery.” That’s in the Ten Commandments, and now who is this Person who is standing there saying, “This is what it was before, but I say to you”? Who could possibly make that kind of a statement, basically not contradicting, because he’s not saying it’s okay to commit adultery—like Fr. Costa says, it’s not the opposite—but he’s taking it much, much further? Who would dare to do that other than the Lord himself? Jesus is not acting as a rabbi here except to the extent that he’s interpreting the Law as it was intended from a Christian perspective. Go ahead, Fr. Costa.

Fr. Costa: Another point is that we know that all these scribes and Pharisees and what have you, they were looking for excuses to try to trip him up. How come nobody talks about that? How come they say, “Well, he’s talking about something that is contrary to the Law”? Why? I mean, they’re coming up with all kinds of other things, but they don’t use those things to talk against him: “This is an antithesis, and it’s really saying something different.”

Dr. Constantinou: Right, they don’t criticize him for that, because they did criticize him for violating the little nit-picking rules of ritual purity, and they were always looking for something to accuse him of. But in this deep understanding that he had of the real meaning behind the Law, it’s not simply about avoiding committing adultery, but avoiding lust; it’s not simply enough to avoid killing somebody, but you shouldn’t be angry, you shouldn’t call your brother names: all of these things are so much deeper than what the rabbis were teaching.

Like Father said—that’s a perfect point that you made, Father, and that is that the rabbis were finding all kinds of tricky excuses for people not to be responsible for following the Law. Jesus condemned this hypocrisy—I don’t know if you remember that—where some of them, for example, they didn’t want to support their parents, and that’s one of the Ten Commandments, to honor your parents, your father and your mother. And so that was understood by the Jews to mean that when your parents got old you had to support them. So they found a way around that: they made a law that said if your money was dedicated to the Temple, you could spend it as long as you lived, but you didn’t have to spend any of it on your parents. And Jesus mentions that one in the gospel of Matthew.

So rather than trying to find the deeper heart of the Law to reach greater spiritual perfection, they were arguing over ways that they— how, to what extent the Law actually applied. They were weakening even the written laws of the Ten Commandments.

Justinian: Very interesting.

Dr. Constantinou: So did you get anything useful out of the course?

Justinian: I learned that one should only interpret Scriptures by using the wisdom of the Church! [Laughter]

Dr. Constantinou: Was your professor trying to teach the New Testament from a Jewish perspective? Was that…?

Justinian: He made some very nonsensical points. In fact, at one point in the course he said that there’s really no Trinitarian theology in the New Testament. So what I did in my final exam paper is I wrote on the baptism of Christ in the Jordan in Matthew’s gospel, and I quoted the apolytikion of Theophany. I said, “No, the Trinity’s right there!” and then when you did your episode on it, I felt vindicated.

Dr. Constantinou: Totally vindicated. Did you get a good grade or did he punish you?

Justinian: He made some snarky comments, but he made a good grade. Thank you. Presvytera.

Dr. Constantinou: Good, because I have to tell you, the only thing that came… It is a good thing if you have a strong faith and you’re not going to be shaken by these things. This is what happened to me when I was a college student. I had to endure a lot of these ridiculous comments, and I knew there was something wrong. I couldn’t always point out what it was. But that’s what I did: I wrote my papers on the Orthodox perspective of whatever it was, whatever the subject was, and I learned Orthodox theology that way, by having to do the research myself, responding to the professor. Now, I was lucky that I didn’t have professors who didn’t punish me for that, but there are sometimes professors who don’t like it from students. I didn’t challenge them in class or anything like that—I wasn’t a difficult student—but I did respond in my papers and in my exams, and they respected that even though they didn’t agree with it. Father, go ahead.

Fr. Costa: Let me give you another example. I recently published a commentary on the book of Psalms with the Fathers of the Church, and of course I’m using the Septuagint, which is the Greek translation of the original Hebrew text, which doesn’t exist. I hear all kinds of sermons on YouTube, and there are rabbis who talk about the messianic psalms, and they’re trying to change everything. Now, how have these people become so scholarly in everything they do, when the text, they made it up, a thousand years ago, or maybe later. Now, they know everything, and instead of saying words like Jesus or Christ or whatever or the Messiah, they’re putting different words—peace, patience. How are they doing this!? The Greek translation of the Old Testament is the best thing we have, the closest to the original, which is lost.

Dr. Constantinou: The Hebrew original— What he means is the Hebrew original that existed when the Septuagint was translated doesn’t exist any more. That was way before the time of Christ. But they have the Masoretic text.

Fr. Costa: 2,000 years—250 years before the birth of Christ.

Dr. Constantinou: It’s only a thousand years old, the Masoretic text.

Fr. Costa: We have the Septuagint, and they’re trying to change that, pretend like the Christians changed the text. When!?

Dr. Constantinou: Anyhow, I’m so glad that you at least— At least it’s good for us to know what people are saying, and it’s very disturbing when Christian scholars are saying these kind of things, but they want to show how smart they are. They want to show that they’re not interpreting these things from a standpoint of faith, because they consider that makes them less credible as scholars. It’s a very sad development when you have to pretty much deny your faith and deny everything Jesus himself says in the Scriptures, and instead state this nonsense so that people will accept you as a scholar, but that’s world religion right now.

Fr. Costa: These lectures I’m talking to you about by Jewish, supposedly scientists and what have you, they attracted so many Christians. There was no seat to sit down! There were so many people. They went crazy over these new— Yes, and I’m saying, “Come on!” Charlatans! These people are not professors.

Dr. Constantinou: And they’re not even Jewish Christians; they’re just Jews. A lot of Christians think that by reading Jewish materials, they’re going to learn about Christ, but a lot of these things are quite antithetical to the Christian faith.

We’re past the time for a break, but, gee, it was such fun talking to you, Justinian! Thank you for calling.

Justinian: Thank you, Presvytera. Thank you, Father. Kali sarakosti, and I wish you a blessed fast and a blessed Pascha as well.

Dr. Constantinou: You, too, Justinian. Thanks for calling. We’d better take our break at this point. Elijah, thank you.

Fr. Costa: God bless you.

Dr. Constantinou: Good night, Justinian.

Dr. Constantinou: We’re back. We’re having some technical problems. In case you’re just joining us, I’m calling in on the phone, and I have a little bit of laryngitis, but I have my wonderful husband here, Fr. Costa. You know, everybody asks about you, Father. Whenever I go to these speaking engagements: “Why didn’t you bring Fr. Costa with you?” Everybody loves to hear from you, so thanks for helping me out tonight, sweetheart.

Fr. Costa: My pleasure! People wonder probably if you’ve divorced your husband: “How come we don’t see him?”

Dr. Constantinou: Well, because you don’t want to travel when I’m speaking.

Fr. Costa: I am not very well. I cannot walk. I’m sorry. I find it very difficult for me to follow my wife.

Dr. Constantinou: It’s becoming more difficult to travel. [Laughter]

Fr. Costa: Let’s get to the text.

Dr. Constantinou: But he does try to follow me. He finds out if I’m being livestreamed, and he’s watching me and giving me comments afterwards. Thank you, sweetheart. Okay, so we’re continuing with the gospel of Matthew. We’re in chapter five, and the next one of the Antitheses, which is not really an antithesis, as Father pointed out, is about retaliation. Here it is, verse 38:

You have heard that it was said, “An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth,” but I say to you, “Do not resist one who is evil, but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if anyone would sue you and take your coat, let him have your cloak as well. And if anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to him who begs from you and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.

I think that last comment is important. Now let’s go back and talk about it. Chrysostom talks about it, and this is a very famous law, the law of retaliation: “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth.” This is known in scholarly circles as the lex talionis. That’s a Latin phrase—it’s not Greek; it’s not Hebrew: lex is Latin for “law,” talionis, “retaliation.” It’s called the law of retaliation: “An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth, a burn for a burn, a stripe for a stripe, a wound for a wound,” etc.

Today we don’t hear about this very much except in discussions of the death penalty. And some Christians will cite this passage from the Old Testament about how the death penalty is appropriate for this reason. But the Church, the ancient Church and the Orthodox Church, has never supported the death penalty because of this passage. Many Christians follow prescriptions, rules, laws in the Old Testament such as tithing because they’re following Old Testament norms, but our Church doesn’t follow the norms of the Old Testament. We don’t follow Jewish norms; we follow what the Lord said. The Lord does not require us to give ten percent, but that doesn’t mean that we don’t. We’re supposed to give even more than that, to the Church, to the poor, to others. So this idea that we’re limiting to these sort of rules, this is not what Christ established. He gave us higher laws. We’re supposed to sacrifice more for others than just ten percent, more to the Church than even just ten percent. This is what Christ is calling us to in all of these rules, but let’s just talk about retaliation.

The lex talionis— The other reason why it’s a mistake for Christians to point to this as justification for the death penalty is that it does not require— The lex talionis did not exist because it demands punishment; it was created by God to limit punishment, so that there would not be an escalation of violence, because it was a custom—and still is in many places—where if somebody insults a person—let’s say that someone feels slighted; they’re offended—they might answer or call a name, and then the person who was the initial offender is upset by the name-calling, and maybe they’ll slap the person who insulted them. And then the other person will take out a knife and stab them, and then the first person takes out a gun and shoots them.

That kind of escalation of violence was something that this law was designed to prevent, because— I don’t think it really had, for the Jews—because there were times when, for example, there were Palestinians who, in an uprising against the Jews, some of them would rebel against the Jewish army: the army came with a bulldozer and leveled the whole village. That’s not an eye for an eye. It’s a violation of Jewish law. My guess is that the rabbis would say that these laws don’t apply to the Palestinians.

But the point is that you can take revenge only to the extent that you were harmed, and that was so… Somebody’s calling. I hope that’s a new call and I haven’t lost the show. Honey, I’ll keep on talking. I’m going to keep on talking. Go ahead, Father.

Fr. Costa: Coming back to the Antithesis that you talked about and what have you. Jesus is not really saying anything new when it comes to revenge. In Deuteronomy, for example, chapter two, verse 35, he says that “revenge is mine.” It belongs to God. “I will repay. Their foot will slip. Their day of disaster is near, and their doom rushes upon them.” This is a very strict thing that God is saying. If anything, we should pray that he doesn’t punish them that much. “I don’t want punishment at all. Forgive them!” St. John Chrysostom says don’t just love your enemies: pray for them!

Dr. Constantinou: Yes, yes. I just want people to recognize— because people will— “Why did God change the laws?” because God gave that law, the lex talionis. Because it was such an incredible improvement. There were many places in the world where if someone is offended by something a person has done, they will go and kill the whole family. We don’t have that in the Old Testament; that is not allowed. In the Old Testament, you could take revenge to the extent that you yourself were harmed.

Jesus is now eliminating that. He’s changing that, and instead he says what? “Do not resist one who is evil.” How is that possible? Well, Chrysostom said that these laws, the lex talionis, was applicable or appropriate for its time. And Chrysostom says he didn’t give this law so people would pull out each other’s eyes, but so they would keep their hands to themselves so that if you did harm to someone, you knew that they would harm you back. They had the legal right to harm you back. We don’t even have that in this country. You don’t have the legal right to take revenge; you don’t. But Chrysostom saw this as a measure that God allowed for the Jews so that they would be more careful and not harm each other.

And Chrysostom says this: “Christ shows us now that it is not our brother who does these deeds, but the evil one.” So when he says, “Do not resist one who is evil,” that sounds like we’re thinking about a person who is evil, but Chrysostom says, “Do not resist the devil.” Now doesn’t that seem strange? Shouldn’t we resist the devil? Of course, when there’s a temptation, but that’s the temptation: the temptation is to strike a person back. But the person himself is not responsible for the evil that they did; it’s the devil. And when we recognize that this is coming from the devil, we will transfer our anger from our brother to the evil one. That’s Chrysostom. He said we should resist the evil one, but not in this way. “When we are harmed, we resist the devil by allowing ourselves to suffer wrongfully. For fire is not quenched by fire, but by water.”

Isn’t that amazing? Father, what did you find out about what the Fathers say about not taking revenge? While you’re looking for that, I’ll just tell you what the Lord said about offering the other cheek also. He’s showing how we have to have patience and forbearance in all trials. He’s not just talking about this exact thing where somebody slaps you, but in other things, too; he’s just giving an example. And he’s giving an example which is considered an extreme insult. If someone slaps you, it’s a very insulting thing; it shows a lot of disrespect.

“When the person who slaps the other, when he sees the restraint, the self-restraint, of the one who receives this, he will be made ashamed”—this is what Chrysostom says—“and will not add a second blow, but will be restrained and maybe even will repent of the first blow.” So sometimes, even though it seems like the person who has done us wrong has been somehow victorious because they slapped us and we didn’t respond but they got the last word—people always want to have the last word or the last blow or something like this—when we respond, when we avenge ourselves, it makes the person who did the slapping or the insult worse. It deepens their anger, it escalates the violence, even the response, even if it’s a slap back, nonetheless escalates the violence.

But by not responding, sometimes we cause that person to think about what they did, and then actually repent for what they did and look at who gave us this example. Whenever I read this, I can’t help but think of the Lord, when he was standing before Annas, and he answered Annas’ question, and the Lord said, “Why are you questioning me? Why don’t you ask the people who heard me? They’ll tell you what I said.” And then that guard slapped the Lord, and the Lord answered him so mildly, “Why do you slap me? How did you do that? If I was wrong, tell me how I was wrong; if what I said was right and fair, then why did you slap me?” So that was such a beautiful moment of the Lord’s. That was of course before he went through all the other horrible things he experienced.

Anyhow, Father, take us away.

Fr. Costa: Well, I have St. John Chrysostom here, who elaborates on this. It’s like he’s building a home, and he he has about nine steps how to do this. He starts with what I said earlier: Pray for them; not just love them, but pray for them.

Dr. Constantinou: The person who slaps you or harms you, you’re supposed to, yes, pray for them.

Fr. Costa: So you see how many steps he has ascended and how he has set us on the very summit of virtue. Mark it, numbering from the beginning, a first step is not to begin with injustice. A second, after one has begun, is not to vindicate oneself by retaliating in kind. A third, to refuse to respond in kind to those who [are] injuring us, but to remain patient and calm. A fourth, even to offer up oneself to suffering wrongfully. Do you understand what this means? We see a lot of this in the Bible: to endure, even when you are wronged, to just take it and be patient with it.

A fifth, to give up even more than one wrong-doer wishes to take. A sixth step, to refuse to hate one who has wronged us. A seventh, even to love such a one. An eighth, even to good to that one. And a ninth step, to entreat God himself on our enemies’ behalf! Do you perceive how elevated is a Christian disposition? And hence its reward is always glory, as St. John Chrysostom says.

And you can see how Jesus is really perfecting the Law and making it better, much better and much deeper. And that’s only one of the Fathers.

Dr. Constantinou: Unbelievable, just unbelievable. People can see how Fr. Costa not only knows these things and has read the Fathers and has such a strong Orthodox ethos and mentality, but his many, many years as a priest he’s seen these things. Father, I think that you— I don’t know if maybe you can think about this and if you want to think about this, answer after the break: you did a lot of work as a priest in parishes, trying to reconcile people, including married couples. I know this for a fact: you saved many, many marriages, people who were on the verge of divorce. You saved many marriages, and I know you tried very hard to reconcile even people who were estranged from family members, and sometimes really for no good reason. And as the Lord is telling us to love our enemies, what would you say about us with our family members and spouses and things like this?

Fr. Costa: All you have to do is bring them close to Christ, and he will take care of everything. He will fix everything. When people regain faith, then they change inside.

Dr. Constantinou: Yes, that’s true, Father.

Fr. Costa: And the truth is, let’s say for divorce, 90% of the time there is a third person that gets involved in that. Whether we like it or not, whether people say it or not, that’s what is happening! Actually, I tell people: Be jealous of your husband. Be jealous of your wife. Don’t let them do anything they want to. A naive person…

Dr. Constantinou: Two things, though. Each of the spouses— We’re getting a little bit off-topic here, but each of the spouses should recognize when they’re becoming attracted to a third person, not to allow that to go any further, as soon as they see that kind of thing happening. Sometimes, when we’re talking about revenge, some of these people are very bitter in their marriage for some reason, and somehow they feel like they’re going to get back at their spouse by having an affair; that’s a kind of revenge. Have you had people—?

Fr. Costa: Absolutely. People should know how and when to forgive. And it’s not— Some people think: He did this, went with this woman, talked with this woman—that’s over. No! Go after him! Or her. There are some people out there who treat them so much better than you, you’re always complaining. Okay, come on! I mean, activate yourself and say it’s your husband: possess him! It’s your wife: possess her! I mean, in a good sense, not to be torturing them or whatever, but fight for them!

Dr. Constantinou: Do you think that people aren’t always taking responsibility for what they have done? We talked about whose fault and things like this, and people want revenge or whatever. Are they not recognizing their contribution to whatever the problem is?

Fr. Costa: Yes, absolutely.

Dr. Constantinou: Okay.

Fr. Costa: Some of them are even sitting there by the phone, waiting for the other person to call them. Come on! Go ahead and call him and talk to him. Go find him, wherever he is!

Dr. Constantinou: When I didn’t talk to you when I came home on Thursday night, it was because I had no voice.

Fr. Costa: I hope so. [Laughter]

Dr. Constantinou: Not because I was hiding anything, sweetheart! [Laughter] Anyhow, at least I had a wife— I want to mention somebody else who came from a long distance to see me. It was Fr. Nick and Sandy Pastrikos, a wonderful clergy couple from New Jersey. They came all the way to Flushing, and I really appreciated that, and they love you, too. So I think this is a good time for us to take our break, and when we come back we’re going to continue talking about revenge. We’ll look at this from a non-Orthodox perspective: what have other people said about this passage? So join us after the break.

Dr. Constantinou: Hi, everybody! Okay, yes, we’re back after our talk here about— We’re still continuing with our discussion about revenge. Many groups, when the Lord said, “Do not resist one who is evil, but turn the other cheek”— And this of course is something that makes no sense. So when we talk about—well, when I talk about the Orthodox phronema, how we do not use human reasoning in theology, one of the reasons why we don’t do that is because the Lord didn’t do that. This is not logical according to human reasoning, but the Lord’s reasoning is beyond human rationale, reasoning. This is why we have to recognize that God’s thoughts are not our thoughts; God’s ways are above our ways.

At any rate, he says, “Do not resist one who is evil. If anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other.” This is where we get the phrase “turn the other cheek.” “If anyone will sue you to take your coat, let him have your cloak as well. If anyone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to everyone who begs from you. Do not refuse him who would borrow from you.”

First of all, the last part is very important for our understanding of almsgiving, that in the case of—especially now that we’re in Lent. When people ask from us, when people are in need, he tells us to give to anybody who begs from you. Now this question came up in our discussion about almsgiving a couple weeks ago when I was in Flushing; we talked about Chrysostom on almsgiving. Somebody said, “Well, what if my friend is a drug addict, or my brother or sister is a drug addict? They want money from me. Should I give it to them?” This is not what Chrysostom is talking about; this is not what the Lord is talking about. If somebody is on drugs, you’re not supposed to give them money to help them with their habit. But when we see a person on the street who asks something of us, they’re begging. And we know that we have a lot of homeless on the streets. You are not supposed to judge that person! And say: Well, they’re probably on drugs, so I’m not going to help them. Or maybe this is their job or they probably have a job, so I’m not going to help them.

Chrysostom’s point is that we’re not supposed to make a judgment about that person, because we don’t really know. Maybe they really are in need. That’s a different situation, I think. But notice how he talks about and says it categorically: “Give to everybody who asks you. If somebody asks to borrow something, you have to give it to them.” That’s the Gospel ideal.

So when it comes to things like turning the other cheek, and not retaliating, there have been many, many—not only the Fathers of the Church—took this very literally, very seriously. I think it’s wrong for us to try to dilute what the Lord said. Like Father mentioned earlier, John Calvin was thinking that oaths don’t apply all the time. Jesus’ statement are categorical, and it’s very clear what he means. Other non-Orthodox like Francis of Assisi and the Quakers and Gandhi and Schweitzer and Tolstoy and many others really believed that this was intended to be taken literally, and so do the Fathers of the Church. We’re not supposed to fight back. Among some of the Protestants, that was not the case.

Now, within the Catholic Church, there was a discussion about a “just war”: under what circumstances can we use violence? Now, I’m not saying that the Orthodox Church was never, we never had people who participated in a war—of course we did—but I don’t remember ever reading in the Eastern Fathers of the Church a discussion about when—sort of a legalistic discussion, but what constituted a just war, the way Augustine did, and Protestants did. Augustine favored a just war or a merciful war, and even capital punishment. Others like Jerome also interpreted this passage allegorically and said this is about right doctrine rather than heresy. We’re talking about turning the other cheek, not retaliating, in other words. Luther said that for the sake of one’s neighbor and for the preservation of the law and for peace, one should be able to ignore this requirement of Jesus’. And Calvin said with friendship they should use the magistrate to preserve their goods. Calvin also had a lot of people put to death. Luther also approved of killing of a lot of people. So these people who are all for the Bible are not necessarily following these when it’s difficult!

But these are the things that bring us to this higher level of Christian perfection, which is what the Lord is trying to bring about by having these requirements. So when we take them and say, “Well, Jesus doesn’t really mean this,” we lose the opportunity when we see the holiness… That’s why people like Luther and Calvin are not saints! Because when we see the saints who actually followed this, like Chrysostom who told people not to fight for him when he was expelled from Constantinople, removed from the throne twice, he told his followers not to fight for him. Instead he prayed and he endured without retaliation all these things. This is how he in the end of course is a saint of the Church.

Fr. Costa: St. John Chrysostom says there is no worse thing—it’s the greatest evil: war. He said it so clearly.

Dr. Constantinou: [Inaudible] —pacifist.

Fr. Costa: And I can’t believe that right now we have Orthodox fighting Orthodox!

Dr. Constantinou: One of the worst things.

Fr. Costa: Don’t fight anybody. And definitely when we look at all these religious wars, they did a disservice to Christianity!

Dr. Constantinou: Father, those were never religious wars. Like in Ireland, that was always about politics. Just like what’s happening right now with Russia and Ukraine, it’s not about religion.

Fr. Costa: I don’t see a lot of people talking about peace. I don’t see presidents.

Dr. Constantinou: Father is very frustrated by that. People are not talking about peace; they’re just continuing to supply arms and fighting. It would be nice if the Church would intervene to really bring about peace in this terrible, terrible conflict. But Chrysostom said that Jesus conquered not by fighting but by dying. And this is really what we have to remember in these cases. So when he tells us not to retaliate, he’s showing us not only to show tolerance and patience with regard to blows, but also with regard to our possessions. If somebody wants something from you, let them have more, not just what they want, but even more. And why is that? What do you think, Father? I think it’s so we will not show attachment to possessions. What do you think, Father?

Fr. Costa: Many reasons. I mean, you study history and find out about nationalism, about this, about that. Definitely these things are very complicated, and as you said they have very little to do with religion and with love and faith and the grace of Christ. Let’s end war by ending this.

Dr. Constantinou: I’m not talking about wars.

Fr. Costa: I want to talk a little bit about fasting, because it’s appropriate.

Dr. Constantinou: I’ll make sure that we do. Once we do this little section, I’ll make sure that you have time to talk about fasting, but Chrysostom said that God wants us to be profitable not to ourselves alone, but also to our neighbors as well. There’s a story, and I can’t remember what saint it was, where somebody robbed him of something. He convinced the person to give it back to him, and then the saint gave it to the person so that that person would not be guilty of the sin of robbery. Isn’t that amazing? And that’s a saint! That’s what we’re trying to get at here. So he says that the Lord: look at what he’s commanding, not only that that we not retaliate for injury to our physical person, we don’t retaliate for somebody who’s taking our possessions, but even our bodies are to be given in service to those who are in need, by saying, “If somebody asks you to march one mile, march two miles.” This is because, in the Roman army, they had the right to conscript labor and force people to do work for them.

And he says, “Give to anyone who asks of you, and lend to anyone who would borrow.” And here by “borrow,” he doesn’t mean to lend with interest, but allow anyone to use whatever it is that you have that they need. I think this is an amazing passage of the Antitheses. Maybe you can come up with a better name for this section, Father, but it is amazing. This is what makes us saints, dear brothers and sisters. It’s easy to say, “Well, I can’t do this,” but when we practice this, this is what makes us God-like. This is what it means to imitate Christ, to live this. So if we say, “Well, I can’t do this. I won’t do this. Or Jesus didn’t really mean it,” we’re watering down the Gospel; we’re depriving ourselves of this potential to be sanctified here on earth. That’s what we’re supposed to be doing.

This is a beautiful passage. We’re going to stop here. Next time we’ll talk about the love of neighbor and get to the rest of the chapter. But, Fr. Costa, my darling, you want to talk about fasting. Give us a little bit of encouragement on fasting. You want to go ahead and take it from here for the rest of the program?

Fr. Costa: A lot of heretics say that Jesus never said to fast. I can’t believe they are saying such a thing! Jesus said how to fast because he took it for granted that everybody knew that fasting was a requirement. No discussion; you don’t have to fuss.

Dr. Constantinou: As practiced by the early Church.

Fr. Costa: When I look at the original, the text and what have you, I see that they are taking phrases out; they’re taking words out. Remember when Jesus performed the miracle of the—

Dr. Constantinou: Epileptic demoniac. The boy who was falling into the fire and into the water. He calls out to the epileptic demoniac.

Fr. Costa: His disciples asked him, “How come I couldn’t do this?”

Dr. Constantinou: To cast it out. They were unable to cast it out.

Fr. Costa: They prayed and this and that. And he said some of these demons will not leave unless there is prayer and fasting. They go together! All these good news Bibles, they took it out! Sometimes they put it as a footnote. I can’t believe the changes they are doing. So fasting is very important. I will explain some of the reasons later.

But the first Christians had four types of fasting. One was called nysteia. If you go to the Greek word, like the Greek word metanoia, repentance is what? You have to go to the Greek word to find out what it really means. And nysteia comes from two words: no-nysteia; no-eating. So the real fasting is no food.

Dr. Constantinou: At all.

Fr. Costa: Okay, Jesus did it for 40 days. Definitely it’s very hard for us to do, and first Christians—even today they are doing what they call the three-day fasting, that they don’t eat anything except they drink a little bit of water. But anyway, they have four—

Dr. Constantinou: That’s at the beginning of Lent?

Fr. Costa: Sometimes they do it in the beginning and in the end. I remember even my mother, who was a very strict Christian, she was have a fast for the first week and the last week. Was it proper? Of course not.

Dr. Constantinou: That’s because they didn’t know better.

Fr. Costa: Let me talk about four types of fasting that the first Christians did.

Dr. Constantinou: So the typical Greek word for fasting is nysteia, and that means no eating at all, of anything.

Fr. Costa: Or they have the word aphageia, which is the same thing. A- is the alpha, that means “no” again.

Dr. Constantinou: It’s negation. Is that an ancient Greek word?

Fr. Costa: Yes, aphageia. Anyway, the second one is called yperstasis, hyperstasis. It’s strict fasting, but it means eating no cooked food, only fruit, nuts, and what have you. The third one is stadion; stadion comes from the word “stadium,” because when they would be fasting and go through Great Lent, they were saying this is a place—

Dr. Constantinou: A place of struggle.

Fr. Costa: Yes, an exercise, to struggle.

Dr. Constantinou: The arena.

Fr. Costa: The arena, very good. Which was a kind of half-fasting, or measured fasting. That’s something we forget to do today. They used to weigh out a small portion of bread and water. And the fourth one was called enkrateia, which means self-control. This included controlling all our evil passions, all our senses. So you cannot say, “I’m fasting, and I’m letting everything else go. I’m doing all the other things I want to.”

Dr. Constantinou: Yeah, so in other words, not just fasting from food, but from other things, pleasures and comforts and entertainment and things like this, which most people don’t know how much they’re doing of that.

Fr. Costa: In The Teachings of the Twelve Apostles, called Didache—

Dr. Constantinou: Didache. In English they call it The Dida-kay, but Dida-key is how we would say it in Greek.

Fr. Costa: Which is the earliest document after the New Testament. [It] instructs the Christians to fast on Wednesdays and Fridays. If you do not fast on Wednesdays, they are saying you are betraying Christ; and if you do not fast on Fridays, they are saying it’s like killing Christ. I mean, they’re making it so easy and for children, so they could remember.

Dr. Constantinou: And let me just add there, this document dates back to the year 50. It’s not in the New Testament, but it is the oldest Christian document outside of the New Testament. There it talks about Christians fasting on Wednesdays and Fridays, and it tells us exactly why. So we’re talking about the primitive Church. We’re talking about the time when the apostles were still alive. This was the practice of the early Church, the primitive Church: fasting. And the Lord said, when he was criticized by the Pharisees, “Why don’t your disciples fast?” he said, “Because the Bridegroom is with them, but the time will come when they will fast.” And he made it very clear to them, and the ancient Church, the early Church, did fast. And they chose, rather than Mondays and Thursdays, which were the dates of the Jewish fast, they chose Wednesdays and Fridays, because, as Father said, to remember the Lord’s betrayal and his crucifixion. If we can’t give up even meat on Fridays in remembrance of the Lord’s crucifixion, we’re not very much Christians, I would say.

Fr. Costa: Some people, influenced by monasteries usually, they will fast also on Saturday! This is an abomination! You’re not supposed to fast on Saturdays unless it’s Great Lent, unless it’s the fasting for the Virgin Mary or before Christmas.

Dr. Constantinou: One of the fasting periods.

Fr. Costa: But the truth is, in the beginning, fasting never exceeded a week in duration.

Dr. Constantinou: In the very beginning.

Fr. Costa: But it was very severe in character, especially the days that commemorated the Lord’s Passion.

Dr. Constantinou: So they weren’t eating at all.

Fr. Costa: In other words, Holy Week.

Dr. Constantinou: It was very severe, and it was shorter, because fasting meant no eating at all; they ate no food at all. So it was very—

Fr. Costa: 40 days were not really connected with Holy Week in the beginning.

Dr. Constantinou: Not initially.

Fr. Costa: Saturdays and Sundays were supposed—and we know that they are—the resurrection days. You’re not supposed to be fasting on those two days. Actually, some of the Russians were very upset with the Greeks because a thousand years ago they told them not to fast Saturdays and Sundays, and then they came back after 700 years, and: “Oh, now you have to fast even Saturdays and Sundays.” So some of the old Russians, or some of the Russians, they do not fast Saturdays and Sundays, even during Great Lent.

Dr. Constantinou: They moderate the fast, because that’s actually the ancient tradition.

Fr. Costa: So what do we do?

Dr. Constantinou: Chrysostom talks about that, too. The fast was moderated in Antioch in the fourth century.

Fr. Costa: And I think that is the point. We have to follow the Church: if the Church says you fast, you fast. But if you want to moderate fasting or you want maybe to eat dairy products and what have you, you eat on Saturdays and Sundays.

Dr. Constantinou: Shouldn’t they discuss that with their spiritual father, Father?

Fr. Costa: Absolutely, but the thing we have to know— Some of these rules, you know, we don’t have to be specially know what they were doing to know what to do today.

Dr. Constantinou: Well, Father, you know—

Fr. Costa: And another thing is that once a day, three o’clock.

Dr. Constantinou: That’s what Chrysostom talks about, during his sermons on Great Lent, which is mostly his sermons on Genesis. Everybody came to the church in the late afternoon, hungry. They didn’t eat all day! And they went to the Liturgy. He’s talking and giving his sermon. He knows that later they’re going to go home and eat. So they were moderating what they ate. I’m sure they were not eating meat or any animal, but they were eating once a day. And then that was eased somewhat on the weekend. I don’t think they were eating meat or anything, but it was moderated.

I want to say one thing about the Saturday fasting, because I’m sure many people will not believe us, because I was raised… But when we were going to take Communion, we would fast on Saturdays, too, because my parents didn’t know. They got these ideas from their grandparents and maybe people didn’t receive Communion so often, so they thought that they had to be more prepared, so some people were fasting for a whole week, not just Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. I didn’t even know about the Wednesday fast growing up. My mother didn’t know about it.

The point is that when we told people about the Saturday fast, one of psaltis, one of our parishes, they were fighting you about that. You’re not supposed to— You told them—

Fr. Costa: Even the monks. I’ve studied this. I’m not just spinning it out of my head.

Dr. Constantinou: I know you know, but it’s against the canons of the Church.

Fr. Costa: That was one of the big problems.

Dr. Constantinou: Between us and the Photian schism.

Fr. Costa: Right.

Dr. Constantinou: That’s right, so that’s what I was going to bring out. One of the great criticisms that St. Photios makes against the Catholic Church is that they were teaching people to fast on Saturdays, and that’s considered a big canonical violation. Fr. Costa knows what he’s talking about. You have your own spiritual fathers out there, and your parish priests in your own customs. We’re not telling you to do something contrary to what you have been told to do, but you should know that this is something that was introduced by the Catholic Church, and St. Photios fought against it.

Fr. Costa: One of the things that we have to remember, when studying the history of the Church, is a little surprising, but the ones who advocated extremely strict fasting were the heretics! The Valentinians: fasting including everything that had to do with the world, everything. Saturninians: some of the heretics said that we should abstain from everything that does not have a soul. The Montanists had a very strict two weeks of fasting, raw foods only. Marcion only accepted fasting on the Sabbath and Sunday—when we shouldn’t be fasting! [Laughter]

Dr. Constantinou: Yeah, I know. So in other words, variations from this was part of heresy, was a sign, was a mark of heresy.

Fr. Costa: This is one of the apostolic canons: “If a clergyman fasts on Sundays or Saturdays, except the Great and Holy Saturday, he must be defrocked!” Do you understand what this is? And I’m not saying this to destroy your faith or anything, but come on! Let’s not go to extremes. You have to remember that there are two Typika in the Church—I believe it’s two; there are more. There’s the monastic Typikon, and the Typikon of the people in the parish and what have you, the Church in the world. And it seems that the monastic Typikon has taken over in all of the things, and maybe rightly so and what have you, but not to an extreme.

Dr. Constantinou: It’s not for everyone.

Fr. Costa: Fine, I mean, it’s not so good for the health either, to say to people, “You don’t eat oil during 40 days, or 48, 49 days.” This is a crime! Let’s not become extreme. There are other ways of fasting; it’s not just food.

Dr. Constantinou: Yes, in other words, the fasting is not— The fasting of food is not the most important thing we have to be thinking about during Lent. It’s part of Lent, it’s part of our discipline, but we need to be fasting from other things as well, and we have to recognize what Father’s saying is that many of these very strict measures were practiced by the monks, and they’re not something that we are supposed to follow, because we’re not always capable of doing that. I want to recognize, Father—I think it’s very important when we say this—that sometimes these suggestions that we imitate— Or people sometimes read the Lives of saints and say, “Well, I’m going to fast like St. So-and-so did”—as if we’re capable! We’re not! It’s like: “I’m going to fast like Jesus did. I’m not going to eat anything for 40 days.” But are we capable of doing this? This is ridiculous!

We have to recognize that this is not a decision for us to make, because each of us is in a different age of life, different situation in life, different experience with fasting. Some of us are not capable of doing this, and when we try to exceed what we’re capable of doing, this is how sometimes, this brings us to a downfall. This can be a temptation of the devil. It can be a temptation to become proud, or it’s a temptation from the devil to get us to do something that we’re not capable of doing, and then he uses that against us, usually to become proud of ourselves.

So we’re not supposed to decide for ourselves the measure of our fasting. I do this every Lent: I talk to my spiritual father about what I am supposed to do during Lent. If you have a feeling like you want to do something—I know Fr. Costa’s spiritual children will come and say, “Father, I want to fast in this way,” and he either says, “Okay,” or “I don’t think that’s a good idea,” or whatever. This is part of our discipline: it is obedience. And that is: we’re going to do what our spiritual father says, and they know usually what we’re capable of doing, but don’t take it upon yourself to think that you’re capable of fasting the way some great saint fasted, or that that’s expected of you or required of you, because that’s what monastics do. Monastics are not living in the world. We’re living in the world—with kids and husbands and wives and jobs and all kinds of responsibilities that are distractions.

If we can keep a reasonable fast and try to eliminate those distractions from our life and just pray more, that’s a much more important thing for us to do than to keep a super-strict fast that weakens us and makes us super-grouchy. Like when I was trying to fast early in our marriage, really, really strictly, and I became very unpleasant to be around! You told me, “Please tell Fr. Paul not to let you fast like this.” I didn’t really— I think I even asked him, but you told me I couldn’t fast like that. Now I can, but I became very grouchy and not pleasant to be around. That’s not what our fasting is about, keeping it—

Fr. Costa: Some of the Fathers of the Church bring up a point that I find striking. They said do you know the one who did the worst in the world, even before creation, and what have you? It’s someone who never ate anything! Didn’t taste food, because as an angel, he didn’t need to eat. But the thing is we have to remember to not go to extremes. Be careful. We are not saying not to fast. Don’t go to extremes.

Dr. Constantinou: Yeah, we’re not telling you to eat meat.

Fr. Costa: People say fanaticism is Christian; it’s okay. No, it’s not okay. Christian fanaticism? No! That’s what causes wars. We have to be careful. Some of the Fathers talk about the middle of the way.

Dr. Constantinou: The middle way.

Fr. Costa: Maybe this is part of our Greek heritage: Everything in moderation. Come on! We are not stupid people. We do not have blind obedience. Yes, we talk to our spiritual fathers, and we obey what they tell us to do, but at the same time, are we supposed to have parties during Great Lent? Absolutely not! Are we supposed to go to Las Vegas? [Laughter] Not supposed to go there any time. But do we go to Las Vegas during Great Lent? Come on. Definitely we are intelligent people, and we can understand some of these things very well.

Now, I didn’t finish what I said about the apostolic canon. It’s number 66. Some might ask, “Where did Fr. Costa find this?” It’s the 66th apostolic canon, and I didn’t finish it. “If a clergyman fasts on Sunday or Saturday, except the Great and Holy Saturday, he must be defrocked! And if a lay person”—if you people—“does this, he is to be excommunicated!”

Dr. Constantinou: That’s on a Saturday or Sunday. They were talking about, it but they don’t mean… Now we have a lenten fast where we don’t eat meat, at least don’t eat animal products… Are they talking there, Father, about not eating anything at all, that strict, strict fast? What is your point in that we’re supposed to somehow ease up on the fast on the weekends, maybe each in our own way?

Fr. Costa: Absolutely. Also it depends on our health; it depends on our age; it depends on a lot of things. But, as I said, this is something you can regulate with your spiritual father. Tell him about your problems, if you have any…

Dr. Constantinou: And your weakness. But this all perhaps, with recent converts, they’re not used to this, and they don’t want to—they find it difficult to fast. It’s something that you can get used to over time, but this is something to be discussed with your spiritual father. I think, Father, maybe that those canons against fasting on the weekends are also— We’re getting together on weekends, we see people at church, and there’s a tendency to really judge other people at church. Sometimes somebody brings out milk for coffee hour and somebody else does a big fuss and they become very harsh and very judgmental about this. If somebody brings out milk for coffee, it’s not necessary to make a big fuss, as though the sky was falling down, but simply leave it there. Let people take it or not take it as they see fit.

What we want to try to do is to help people understand that we should not be Pharisees. This is the kind of thing that the Lord was criticizing the Pharisees for. We’re not going to enter the kingdom of heaven because we kept little nit-picky rules but because we grew in self-control and grace and love and forgiveness during Lent. If we’re going to take that fasting and become proud of it or look at how other people are fasting or not fasting, and even silently in our minds judge them, we will go to hell for that; we’re not going to heaven. We have to be so careful of this. This is the worst thing. We’re going to get to this in a later chapter here in Matthew’s gospel. But the very worst thing we can do is to judge other people, because we don’t know their circumstances. Father?

Fr. Costa: St. Basil’s second homily on fasting; canon 61 and 69, Gangara Synod. According to the Fathers, the wise people of the past were always opposed to blasphemy. Now, this is very important. They believed that fasting cleared the mind—and it does! It revitalizes memory. Gluttony, eating too much, turns into what is polyphageia, or better koiliodoulia, which is the slavery of the belly. Now, this is what we have to— This is down—the heart of the problem.

Dr. Constantinou: This is what Paul talked about, too.

Fr. Costa: The stomach is the center of a lot of evils.

Dr. Constantinou: But isn’t it because if we lack self-control over what we eat, we’re going to be less likely to be able to control other things, Father? Go ahead.

Fr. Costa: Fasting is like a human bridle that controls us.

Dr. Constantinou: “Bridle.”

Fr. Costa: Bridle. Fasting was also supposed to be the medicine of grief. Did you know that? That’s why people went after a death…

Dr. Constantinou: We talked about that, yes.

Fr. Costa: We talked about 40 days and went to receive holy Communion afterwards. St. Athanasius, who was the patriarch of Alexandria, wrote in 341 to his people, telling them to fast for 40 days, not including Holy Week. A few years later, he remarks that Christians were also fasting in Europe, but in his area, Alexandria, still did not have this custom. You think about it, 341, of the 40 days of Lent. He said to the Alexandrian people, “They’re making fun of us! They’re saying that you’re too lenient.” So that’s when it was established, and then rightly so. The Church is the one that really decides this.

Now in Rome they were fasting on the first, fourth, and fifth weeks. When the Catholic Church changed the Clean Monday to Ash Wednesday in the sixth century—sixth century!—Pope Gregory the Great, the Christians of Milan objected, and fasted the beginning of Lent on Clean Monday.

Dr. Constantinou: Did you find out why Gregory the Great, whose feastday was yesterday, by the way—why did he change it to Wednesday? I didn’t know he was the one who changed it to Wednesday. They were starting on a Monday, elsewhere in Italy and in Milan, of course, they weren’t actually under him; they had their own bishop up there.

Fr. Costa: In Syria, the fourth-century pilgrim wrote about the practice of fasting in Jerusalem, where they did not fast on Saturdays and Sundays. That was the fourth century.

Dr. Constantinou: Wow. We have to finish, Father, but over time do you want to wrap up your ideas about fasting? I was going to say something, but I forgot.

Fr. Costa: I was clear in what I said, and definitely I don’t promote non-fasting. Are you kidding? Definitely we have to fast these days until Easter. You know, everything in moderation, and not taking to extremes. Do not criticize people who are not fasting, but we have to tell them, too, “This is a fasting time. We don’t want you to have the parties right now. If you have anything, birthdays and what have you, serve lenten meals.”

Dr. Constantinou: We had this situation in our own family. People wanted to have parties during Lent, and this is an issue. It’s okay to say to somebody, “We’re Orthodox Christians, and we don’t attend parties during Lent, and certainly [don’t] eat meat during Lent,” but that doesn’t mean that we have to be harsh with them or judgmental or criticize that, but it is okay for us to make the statement so that people will know that this is not something that we do, and where we stand. Because also we scandalize people of faith who see us going there and attending parties and participating in these things. Now if they say to us, “We’re going to have fish to you,” or something like this, we say to them, “That’s not the point. The point is that you—you, especially the older generation, our age and the parents of the young kids—should be setting the example that the children will remember. You remember your mother and her fasting and what an impression she made on the family. We remember that!”

We have to recognize that we’re setting an example for our children and our grandchildren and our godchildren and people in the church who are not there, not for our pride, but so that they will follow us in the tradition of the Church. Again, not because we’re saved by our fasting but that it is designed to help us to a greater self-control and also for humility, because we recognize our need for God, and also to draw us closer to God through prayer.

Fr. Costa: Yeah, but I have to remind you—

Dr. Constantinou: Yes, Father.

Fr. Costa: —that the reason we were kicked out of paradise was because of no fasting! One food! [Inaudible] And you’re telling me it has nothing to do with our salvation? I think it does.

Dr. Constantinou: Well, because it’s a tool for us to become closer, but if we use it in the wrong way, like the devil tries to get us to use our good things in the wrong way— If we use fasting, and because of our fasting we can become proud and judgmental of others, if we use our fasting and then think, “Oh, I’m a really great Orthodox Christian; I’m better than these other people,” then we’ve lost everything. So of course, and you know what I have to say about that particular party. I talked about this. Okay, and we will talk about this again when we get to fasting.

Fr. Costa: So the Fathers of the Church, they were saying that we lost paradise because of fasting, and now, through fasting, we can get back.

Dr. Constantinou: There you go.

Fr. Costa: This is why this period of fasting, it reminds us of the pre—

Dr. Constantinou: That’s why we mention Adam and Eve on Forgiveness Sunday. We’re trying to return to paradise. Why? Because we’re trying to deny our self-will. It wasn’t what they ate, that they ate the fruit, of course—God told them not to eat that fruit—but it’s because they chose to follow their own will. What we have to do—and this fits very well with what we were talking about in terms of this whole lesson today—when Jesus says, “Turn the other cheek if somebody slaps you,” our reaction would be to slap them back, but we’re supposed to deny that and instead follow Christ. And if we do that, then we can be saved. Is that a good way to end the program?

Fr. Costa: Yes. Can I slap you twice?

Dr. Constantinou: No! [Laughter] Okay.

Fr. Costa: God bless you, listeners.

Dr. Constantinou: Let’s close with our prayer. Thank you so much. I’m so glad. Thank you, Father, for helping me out here. We’ll have another Search the Scriptures next week on March 20, and be live again. We’ll continue here with the Antitheses, and we’ll start talking about the next chapter, chapter six, where the Lord talks about prayer also. Let’s close with our prayer.

Lord, now let your servant depart in peace, according to your word, for our eyes have seen your salvation which you have prepared before the face of all peoples, a light to enlighten the Gentiles, and the glory of your people, Israel. Amen.

Good night, everyone.

Fr. Costa: Good night.