Mr. Bill Marianes: Imagine if you were being recruited to a new job and a new life, and as they were describing the new position to you, here’s the bad news part of what they said you would experience: Unreasonable expectations will be imposed upon you. There will be an uncertain future for you and your family. You’ll lack control over your life and likely have financial uncertainties. You need to accept the very real possibility of a nomadic life, with multiple moves, at potentially inconvenient times in your life. You’ll live in a fishbowl of constant visibility and judgment by everyone. Your spouse? Well, he’ll be on-call 24 hours a day and seven days a week, and often can’t say no or protect family time. And stress? Oh, you’ll experience seemingly constant and endless stress, the stress of not being in control and the stress of all the uncertainty.

So if this was the bad news part of the job description for your new position, how many of you are ready to sign up? And if you had to deal with all of that, how would you cope? Welcome to the world of a presvytera, matushka, panimatka, popadija, khouria—the wife of an Orthodox priest. Licensed guidance counselor and wife of a Methodist minister, Marilyn Brown Oden, wrote about her clergy spouse and family research in The Christian Century, all the way back in 1988, and she discussed research from even two decades earlier in the book, The Minister’s Wife: Person or Position?.

That was a case study of nine clergy spouses who met weekly to share their hopes and dreams and struggles and joys. In the intervening years, a full one-third of those nine clergy wives got divorced from their clergy husbands. Eight of the nine clergy actually left the ministry, and then three tried to return. This is a pathway of significant turmoil and difficulty, and that was then, when divorce was much less common than it is now. But there’s no doubt that while many joys exist, the pressures and stresses on clergy spouses and families is enormous.

In Marilyn Oden’s research, 200 clergy spouses were asked to write anonymous letters expressing what they would like to say to their church congregations. Number one on their list, and the sentiment that was expressed by 43% of the clergy spouses, was the feeling that the parish placed unreasonable expectations on them and their families. Think about that! Almost half of the clergy spouses felt significant and unreasonable expectations constantly putting pressure on them and their families. While some of them eventually came to realize that they were actually placing some of those unreasonable expectations on themselves, here were a few of the sentiments that were expressed by clergy spouses in their anonymous letters to their congregations.

We are expected to give so much. It’s hard to give joyfully any more. I wonder if I can hold up any longer under your unrealistic expectations on me and my husband. I’m not willing to let my children grow up without a daddy. If things don’t change, then I doubt our calling. I feel sad.

Another clergy wife wrote:

I was so used up that I wanted to withdraw. I got a full-time job to escape the hassles, and this concerns me. I used to be the positive one, excited about ministry, and now I feel like the negative minister’s wife I’ve never understood.

A different clergy wife wrote:

I’d appreciate your understanding of my working outside and inside the home, which allows me little time to be involved as you’d like me to be in women’s circles. I’m already going in circles!

And one more sentiment from a clergy spouse concluded:

Sometimes, though, I feel like I’m going to burst under the stress of it all. It would be so good to be able to share these pressures with you, but I feel like you wouldn’t understand some of my feelings. I don’t mean to sound negative—you’ve always shown me great love—I just feel like I’m in this alone.

“I feel alone in this”? Let that settle in for a second. How would that make you feel if you were in such a position? Tonight we explore this difficult but critical topic, and some of the things that we can do to address the issues being faced by one of the most important constituencies in our churches: the wives and families of our clergy.

Hello, brothers and sisters. Welcome to Stewardship Calling in the first-Wednesday series on Ancient Faith Radio. This is Bill Marianes from StewardshipCalling.com, coming to you from the beautiful shores of Lake Lanier in Gainesville, Georgia, just north of Atlanta.

I have a simple premise: you have been called by your Creator to a personal calling, a reason to your life and a reason for your life, something you need to do with all of the gifts over which God has made you a steward. It’s what I call your stewardship calling. And St. Paul repeatedly makes it crystal clear that we all have a calling. For example, in his letter to the Ephesians 4:1, he clearly states, “I beg you to lead a life worthy of the calling to which you have been called.”

Now until 2017, by day I was blessed to be a partner in two great international law firms of over 1100 lawyers each, where I served in management, including as managing partner of our Atlanta office and practiced in the area of mergers and acquisitions in corporate law. But my “why,” my personal calling, is to be a stewardship calling evangelist. I’m here to help people and parishes discover and live their stewardship calling so that they may have a good account before the awesome judgment seat of Christ. As we all try to follow Christ’s great commandment to love one another, his great charge to serve one another, and his great commission to make disciples of all nations—welcome to that journey.

Now this program and a lot of other helpful tools and information about effective churches and stewardship and church strategic planning and servant leadership can be found at my always-free website, StewardshipCalling.com, and you can always reach me at bill@stewardshipcalling.com. And to all of our listeners tonight, we want you to join us by calling in and interacting with my special guests. You can call 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346.

In the opening, I shared some of the data regarding the struggles of clergy spouses and families. Tonight we will hear from a dedicated group of Orthodox faithful—including a presvytera!—about the most current research and data on this critical topic. And I want you to listen with open ears and an open heart, because the story is sometimes a difficult one to hear at times, but it’s also a critical one that we all have to hear, and then act upon.

In the research of licensed guidance counselor and clergy wife, Marilyn Brown Oden, she discovered that in addition to the unreasonable expectations that were placed on clergy spouses, a close second issue was loneliness. These women and families are in a constant fishbowl of visibility in our communities, and yet often the predominant feeling is one of loneliness. The research showed that loneliness arose from the assumptions placed on clergy spouses in the parish and even in the secular world around them. Listen again to several sentiments that were expressed directly by clergy spouses in anonymous letters that the counselor had them write to their parish.

Oh, how I wish I had a real friend among you! To share all these jumbled feelings and thoughts with, someone to laugh and cry with, someone who would understand that I can’t and don’t want to be perfect, someone who can need me as a friend. Members are afraid to get too close.

Another clergy wife wrote:

This is our first church, and after a year with you I still feel lonely. Does everyone feel this loneliness? Does it last forever?

A different clergy spouse wrote in this hypothetical letter to her parish:

I wonder if you’ll like me. I mean, out of this concern I overextend myself. I’m also concerned that being so cautious from being in a parsonage for so many years that I over-respond to events and personalities and attach strings to others, sometimes blocking relationships.

And then there’s the judgment, the constant judgment! One spouse wrote:

You stymie the church with your pettiness!

Another one wrote:

I see so many uncommitted who are willing to let “someone else” keep things going in the church. Without being too judgmental, I see my spouse being overworked and under-appreciated. In seeing that “the minister is the only one ministering” or that the minister is “continually bumping his head against a brick wall” generates stress at the very least, and at times gives rise to cynicism.

And then there are feelings of the constant and never-ending demands. One of the clergy spouses wrote:

We truly love you, but sometimes I don’t think you understand the sacrifice we made to go into ministry. We have essentially rescinded our personal, private lives to share in yours. Our future is not in our hands. In some cases, our house doesn’t even belong to us. Our salary is public knowledge, discussed and decided on as casually as whether to paint the fellowship hall yellow or white.

Now, to be sure, the sense of calling and purpose, and the joy of bringing people closer to Christ is an unimaginable blessing, and while some people treat clergy and spouses like hired hands or paid employees, so many more are loving and welcoming and try to be supportive in so many ways. But the burnout of clergy and clergy spouses is real and personal, and because of the fishbowl phenomenon, they often can’t share their feelings and challenges publicly.

In a fascinating research paper entitled, “Care for Pastors: Learning for Clergy and Their Spouses,” that was written by Professors McMinn, Lish, and Trice, and their doctoral students, that was published by George Fox University, they conclude that:

Based on the literature and the studies we describe later, community resources appear to be sparse for many clergy. Though clergy desire and need friendships, many have difficulty forming close relationships outside their immediate family, because they perceive themselves to be “put on a pedestal” and “boxed in” by parishioners’ expectations of ways pastors should behave. These expectations can have an isolating effect. Moreover, parishioners may disapprove of pastors who form exclusionary or special relationships with certain congregation members. As a result, clergy sometimes form relationships that lack depth and intimacy.

As with their husbands, social support is important to the wives of male clergy, but it is a difficult endeavor. In one survey, 56% of clergy wives reported having no close friends, and one-fifth of the women believe that people shy away from them because they’re married to the priest. Many clergy wives see self-disclosure as a danger, something that might jeopardize their husband’s career. And frequent geographic relocations, also often associated with clergy families, are another barrier to the formation of close relationships.

And if you’re interested in the background research that made all of the conclusions that I just quoted above, you should read this paper, because it’s replete with citations to the empirical research projects that unfortunately led to these conclusions. And an article in Ministry International Journal for Pastors, entitled “Burnout in Clergy Families,” concluded the following:

Burnout is a complete exhaustion of one’s physical, mental, and spiritual resources. It’s not mere stress, though stress (particularly job-related) may precipitate it. Stress is the body’s response to the demands made on it. Any change, good or bad, takes its toll on our energy resources. But stress alone, like rainfall, is not bad—it’s the intensity or quantity of it that becomes dangerous. A person merely under stress may exhibit some symptoms of burnout but will recover quickly if the stress is removed.

Burnout strikes primarily in the helping professions—medical professionals, personnel, psychologists, social workers, and clergy. A 1983 Gallup survey indicated that 29% of American clergy have often or occasionally considered quitting the ministry because of frustrations or disappointments. The National Institute for Occupational Safety and Health published a study of 9,000 persons that were admitted to mental health facilities in Tennessee, and clergy ranked 36th among the 130 professions represented, well ahead of teachers and even policemen and physicians.

Roy Oswald, a behavioral scientist with the Alban Institute, estimates that at least one clergyman in four is burned out. After administering both burnout rating and life-changes rating tests at seminars he conducted for clergy and their spouses, he concluded that wives of clergy have higher stress levels than either clergymen or clergywomen.

Now, I’ve got to ask y’all for a favor. After you listen to tonight’s program, I want to ask you to find some time and go back and listen to the multi-part Stewardship Calling fifth-Sunday program that aired on Ancient Faith Radio just three days ago on May 29, 2022. In that program, I interviewed two of the most amazing clergy spouses, Matushka Trudi Richter and Presvytera Dianthe Livanos. They’re both incredibly strong and faithful women, and dedicated servants in Christ’s mission field, but they share something else in common. Both of their clergy husbands were taken from them—and us—to the life eternal at way too early an age. In this three-part May 29 Stewardship Calling program, we discussed how to deal with grief of their loss and how they continued to live their stewardship callings in the face of their great losses. But when you hear Matushka Trudi and Presvytera Dianthe’s stories, you’ll hear some of the many other challenges that they have had to deal with as clergy spouses, and in that way their testimony is going to echo and underscore some of the data I presented in the opening and what will be covered by my guests tonight.

Now, you can listen to those previous programs, the May 29, 2022, or tonight’s June 1 program by going either to my StewardshipCalling.com website and the internet radio tab, then just scroll down to either the June 1 or May 29 date; or you can go to Ancient Faith Radio live, and go to the Stewardship Calling page: again, scroll down to the appropriate date.

My brothers and sisters, hopefully these programs will serve as a wake-up call that you will heed. See, my mission as a stewardship calling evangelist is to stand in the wilderness and to cry out for us to understand and face the challenges facing our parishes and parishioners. All of my programs are connected with that common thread. But without clergy and their loving families, we will not have churches. So tonight we take some time to look at the life of clergy spouses and families from their perspectives and not from our own, sometimes jaundiced views.

Tonight we’re going to look at real and empirical data, not just personal opinions. Tonight we’re going to look intensely at Orthodox clergy spouses and families who face many of the same and many different challenges. Tonight I’m going to challenge you to think about what we can do to make better the lives of those to whom we entrust our spiritual journey and the spiritual development of our children and grandchildren. You see, our clergy and their spouses are the most critical gatekeepers, travel guides, and sherpas of our journey to theosis. And the companion questions I will ask you to consider tonight are: What can we learn about their struggles? And what can we do to make their lives and journeys more fulfilling, effective, and wonderful?

So we’re going to take a short break right now, and when we return I’m going to have the wonderful opportunity to introduce you to three amazing people—Dr. George Koulianos, Dr. George Stavros, and Presvytera Nicole Keares—and please remember that we would love to hear your questions or comments, so please feel free to call in tonight at 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346. Okay, let’s take a short break, and we’ll be right back.

Mr. Marianes: So welcome back to Stewardship Calling and our first-Wednesday forum, where we’re exploring the unique challenges and issues that are facing spouses and families of clergy, with my special guests Dr. George Koulianos, Dr. George Stavros, and Presv. Nicole Keares. Please, please remember that we’d love to hear from you, so feel free to call in tonight at 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346.

Let me briefly introduce my guests, and then we’ll get started with the questions. We’ll begin with Dr. George Koulianos, who’s a very dear friend of mine, and the director of the Center for Reproductive Medicine in Mobile, Alabama. Now Dr. George was actually born in Atlanta, Georgia, but in addition to his vibrant medical practice, he served as assistant professor for the University of South Alabama in the division of reproductive endocrinology and the department of OB/GYN. He received his bachelor’s in biology and chemistry from Houston Baptist University, and received his MD in University of Texas health science, and did his residency in obstetrics and gynecology at Texas Tech Health Center in Amarillo. George also did a fellowship in reproductive endocrinology at Tulane Medical School.

Dr. Koulianos has received an amazing array of awards and recognitions, including serving as president of the Alpha Epsilon Delta Premedical Honor Society and the recipient of a fellowship for research in endocrinology of the post-reproductive woman. George Koulianos is a fellow in the American College of Obstetrics and Gynecology and has served in literally every office, including as president, of the Mobile County Medical Society. George is also a member of the Order of St. Andrew the Apostle, Archons of the Ecumenical Patriarch, and Leadership 100, and has long served the Metropolis of Atlanta on the council and as the instrumental leader in the strategic planning initiatives of the Metropolis of Atlanta, working on clergy issues. Dr. Koulianos is the current president-elect of the Medical Association of the State of Alabama and a board member of the State of Alabama Board of Medical Examiners, and acting chief medical officer of the Mobile County Health Department.

George has also served in many other offices in the Mobile Infirmary Medical Center and is a member of the American College of Obstetricians [and] Gynecologists and the Medical Records Committee of the University of South Alabama Medical Center, and he’s a frequent guest lecturer. He has published so many professional papers that serve as a testament to both his intellectual and his academic excellence. In short, he’s a really big deal in the field of helping families with their reproductive issues and bringing new life into the world.

So my dear friend, George Koulianos, welcome to Stewardship Calling on Ancient Faith Radio!

Dr. George Koulianos: Thank you very much, Bill. Thank you for your kind invitation and the opportunity to present the Clergy Family Initiative to our listeners.

Mr. Marianes: I was just going to say, hang on for a second. Let me introduce your partners in this amazing ministry, and then we can dig in. How about that?

Dr. Koulianos: Okay, thank you. Sorry.

Mr. Marianes: No worries, just sit tight. So my other guest is Dr. George Stavros. Now, George Stavros is the executive director of the Danielsen Institute and clinical associate professor of pastoral psychology at Boston University. The Albert and Jessie Danielsen Institute began as the Danielsen Pastoral Counseling Center at the Boston University School of Theology, back in 1952. Its initial purpose was to provide counseling to parishioners referred by Boston area clergy, and training to clergy, psychologists that were studying for doctoral degrees in pastoral psychology at Boston University. George Stavros is a license psychologist who trained at the Danielsen Institute and has been working at the institute in various capacities since 2004, serving as its executive director since 2009.

His vocational journey as a clinician started actually at Holy Cross Greek Orthodox School of Theology, where coursework and mentoring and, as he calls it, the rhythmic spiritual life of Eastern Orthodox Christianity helped guide him towards doctoral studies in pastoral psychology at Boston University. George spent six years working as a psychologist at the Two Brattle Center in Cambridge, the final four of those years serving as the director of the Evening Intensive Outpatient Program. His clinical work is focused on adolescents, young adults, couples, and clergy, and he truly counts himself fortunate to have worked and supervised in clinical training settings throughout his career.

Dr. George Stavros’s clinical and research interests are in connection between mental health and spirituality, in clinical practice and in clergy and clergy family wellness. Dr. Stavros is the co-author of Relational Spirituality in Psychotherapy and co-editor of The Skillful Soul of the Psychotherapist. He, too, has a list of amazing publications and presentations that, frankly, are too numerous to mention, but all of which are quite impressive. And George now lives with his family in “Bahstahn,” Massachusetts. So, brother George Stavros, I want to welcome you, too, to Stewardship Calling here on Ancient Faith Radio.

Dr. George Stavros: Thank you, Bill. It’s a real pleasure to be here with you and with Dr. George and Presv. Nicole.

Mr. Marianes: All right, now listen. I can see that we have two “Dr. George"s on the program, which is going to create a challenge when I start calling you out. Maybe I need to refer to Koulianos as George the Elder and you as George the Younger, or maybe just George K. and George S., but we’ll figure that out. Hang on, gents, while I introduce your final partner in this amazing ministry, Presv. Nicole.

Presvytera Nicole Keares currently serves as the president of the National Sisterhood of Presvyteres, and she’s served on the national board since 2012, but as secretary, as vice-president, of course now as president. She’s married to the incredible Fr. Costa, who serves as St. Paul Greek Orthodox Church in North Royalton, Ohio—that’s the Cleveland area—a parish at which I was actually very blessed to present. They have two wonderful children, Peter and Christina. Now interestingly, Presv. Nicole comes from a whole family of clergy within our Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. Her father is the late Fr. George N. Bartz; her brother is Fr. William Bartz; and her uncle, the late Fr. Christos Hadgigeorge. Interestingly, she’s also the first PK (priest’s kid) to serve as the president of the National Sisterhood of Presvyteres. She works part-time for a medical billing company and is currently the co-director of Sunday school and on the parish’s Philoptochos board. Presv. Nicole, welcome to Stewardship Calling on Ancient Faith Radio.

Presvytera Nicole Keares: Thank you so much, Bill. It’s a pleasure to be here.

Mr. Marianes: All right, so I think I’ve got the whole cast of characters together. Now I kind of quickly gave your bios, but as I have learned there’s always so much more to the person and their calling than their official CV, so I’d like to ask each of you to give us just a little bit more about your upbringing and your background and the journey that you’ve been on to discover and live the stewardship calling you’re currently living. I’ll leave it to you to decide who goes first. All right, don’t make me start calling on you! Prez, you’re up! [Laughter]

Presv. Nicole: Okay, I’ll go first. So, yes, I did grow up in Akron, Ohio. As you said, my dad was a parish priest. He served in Akron for 38 years until he retired, and he was in Akron for a total of 52 years until he passed away.

Mr. Marianes: May his memory be eternal.

Presv. Nicole: So it was a lifetime. Thank you. It really was a lifetime, and that’s where I was born and raised and grew up there. We kind of joke in our family that the clergy family is our family business.

Mr. Marianes: [Laughter] That’s right! Some people have a mafia “family business,” some people have a restaurant family business: you have a bringing people closer to Christ family business. I love it!

Presv. Nicole: Absolutely. But, you know, growing up, I was the youngest of four children. We have—my brother, Fr. Bill, and I have two sisters: Zoe, who lives in Akron, and my sister Pam, who lives in Seattle, Washington. They are also very, very involved in their local parishes as well. And we just grew up as typical… I say a typical parish clergy family, involved in everything. My mom is really a great example. She still lives in Akron, 95 years young.

Mr. Marianes: God bless her!

Presv. Nicole: She was just a wonderful—she is a wonderful example of a presvytera. And again, my dad was ordained in 1948, so this belonged to the old school of mom didn’t work outside of the house.

Mr. Marianes: Of course not.

Presv. Nicole: She raised the children. She was involved; she was supportive in whatever needed to happen in the parish, how she could help my dad and support him. So not only at home, but within the parish. That was my example, and that’s what I knew and that’s what I hope I am doing now. [Laughter]

Mr. Marianes: Well, that’s an awesome example and that’s an awesome story. It is such a unique pathway and a unique calling. And for you guys to have so many in the family who are intimately involved in that is truly a blessing, so God bless you for that.

Presv. Nicole: Thank you.

Mr. Marianes: All right. Dr. George the Elder! Koulianos, give us some of your sordid history, and remember I know where the bodies are buried, brother! [Laughter]

Dr. Koulianos: So I grew up in an immigrant family. My father owned a gas station; I grew up pumping gas and fixing cars. And the Church was always a big part of our life. When I was in college, I went to a Baptist college, and it required mandatory religion classes and chapel and assembly. The only clergyman outside the Baptist church that was allowed to speak at Houston Baptist University was Fr. Nick Triantafilou, and it meant so much to the Greek kids when Fr. Nick spoke at HBU. Getting to know Fr. Nick, I was just very, very fortunate, and I spent a summer at seminary between my junior and senior year of college, and that’s where I studied for the MCAT and took Orthodox Christianity, and it just opened something up that was very powerful within me. You know, you’re created to serve, to answer a higher call.

On top of that, I was blessed to marry Fr. Jim Bogdan’s daughter, Despina, and most people in church functions refer to me as Despina’s husband. [Laughter] I’m truly blessed to have married someone who just has helped me be a better person, be a better Christian. Just seeing a clergy family firsthand and getting to know clergy and sharing the Metropolis of Atlanta strategic plan, the clergy chairing the task force for the Metropolis of Atlanta strategic plan, that opened up a whole new reality that I didn’t even know existed, and some of it just wasn’t very pretty as it related to clergy and the challenges they face. So these types of things tend to take on a life of their own and lead you in directions you never thought you would go.

Mr. Marianes: Well, George is being a little bit humble here. When it came time to identify who was going to lead the three goals within the Metropolis of Atlanta strategic plan on clergy, the natural instinct was to put a clergyman in charge of it. When we suggested George to do it, His Eminence immediately said, “Oh, that’s beautiful! Beautiful!” So he obviously had instilled great confidence. And I think we’re going to get into a little bit more about the great relationship there with the Lilly Foundation that’s been formed and the work that you’ve done there. We’ll hold that there. And I’m glad you didn’t tell any of your farming stories, because what people often don’t know about my dear friend, George Koulianos, is, aside from being the most famous reproductive health medical professional in the state of Alabama, he’s also a gentleman farmer. Maybe we’ll get into some of that later.

All right! George the Younger! Our Bostonian transplant here. Tell us your story.

Dr. Stavros: Well, first I’d love to be referred to as “George the Younger.” [Laughter] That doesn’t happen very much any more. So, thank you, Bill.

Mr. Marianes: That’s why you’re hanging around with Koulianos, right?

Dr. Stavros: Exactly, that’s why I stick around with George. So I was hatched in northwest Indiana, out of the parish of St. Demetrios in Hammond, Indiana.

Mr. Marianes: Now you know that’s my old stomping-grounds, too, right? Did you know that? I grew up at St. George.

Dr. Stavros: I did not know that!

Mr. Marianes: I grew up at St. George in East Chicago, and then when they moved it over to Schererville, my folks moved over to St. Demetrios. So I know where thou hast come from, as we would say.

Dr. Stavros: All right! That is awesome. You probably have a sense of it then. It was the kind of place where there wasn’t any big separation between an incredible liturgical life and GOYA basketball and sneaking a beer at an AHEPA dance from your big cousin. [Laughter] It was all one big beautiful thing that didn’t create much tension in me. I feel very fortunate that way, that faith wasn’t brought in hard; it was brought in really within the rhythms of just a growing up life. So that was in me.

I went off to Purdue University and then got a degree in sports administration and ended up really feeling a kind of pull that I wasn’t sure what it was. It resulted in a summer in Ionian Village, where things really turned in a very positive direction for me. In some ways I feel like I’ve been trying to recreate camp life in everything I do for the rest of my life. [Laughter] It was also there that this George met Despina, Despina Klonaris, and my wife Despina and George’s wife Despina ended up being roommates for a time.

Mr. Marianes: Oh my Lord! What a connection!

Dr. Stavros: So we had a connection that way, too. But after going to Ionian Village, it opened up another road of really not knowing what I was called to other than to maybe go to the seminary and start figuring that out, and that resulted in some pretty incredible years, meeting some of the best friends of my life, a lot of men and women who are now currently serving in the Church as priests and presvyteres. So I have a connection and loyalty to them, just on the level of having really studied and grown together and worshiped together all those years at seminary.

Mr. Marianes: Sure!

Dr. Stavros: But for me, I figured out pretty quickly that ordained ministry wasn’t really the road for me, but received a lot of support when I started to move toward something like counseling. And in that process, at the seminary, experiencing all the good things there, it really was a springboard to go towards the study of pastoral psychology and a vocation doing what I’m doing now, which is connecting psychology and spirituality at the Danielsen Institute, which as you’ve mentioned is an institution specifically set up to do that.

Mr. Marianes: So that’s an incredible journey from northwest Indiana, the basketball capital of the world, through sports—through a sports degree, through the seminary, and now actually doing that. At some point, we need to have a separate conversation of how those dots connected. As I’m fond to remind everybody, Steve Jobs’ commencement address at Stanford, when he said, “You can’t connect the dots of your life looking forward; you can only connect them looking back.” I’m sure there’s a deeper story there, George, so at some point we’re going to need to get into that.

To help us kind of set the stage for the great work that the three of y’all and others have been doing, I’m wondering, George Koulianos, if you could share a little bit with our listeners about the Lilly Endowment and the Clergy Family Initiative, and particularly the Ministerial Excellence Program.

Dr. Koulianos: Wonderful! Thank you, Bill. So the Lilly Endowment was established in 1935 by the heirs, the founding heirs, the Lilly family, and today’s it’s worth over $20 million, and it’s the only large endowment in America that supports Christianity. So the Lilly Endowment employs a Who’s Who of researchers, PhDs, ministers, psychologists, and they create this 35,000-foot view of Christianity that individual denominations can’t do. What they’ve found is that, across all the denominations, that the financial and ministerial challenges that our clergy encounter are a major impediment to ministerial excellence and parish vibrancy. No one really knew how challenged clergy were. I mean, your introduction was exceptional and spot-on. And what the data has shown through Lilly is that clergy who are personally financially literate contribute to healthier and stronger parishes. The fundamental building block of a healthy, vibrant parish is a healthy clergyman and healthy clergy family, and we know that across all denominations.

So Lilly created this program, and we were asked to apply, and we have received two $1,000,000 grants to create our Ministerial Excellence Program. We’ve also just received $250,000 to provide COVID relief that we call COV-Aid. So what we have is we’ve had to do research to justify receiving the grant, and what we found from all the questions were that our clergy are no different from any other denomination.

Mr. Marianes: Really!?

Dr. Koulianos: It’s amazing. Yeah, no different than any other church.

Mr. Marianes: That is interesting.

Dr. Koulianos: Our clergy are just as challenged, and what’s amazing is it’s a problem that we never asked these questions, so we never knew the answers. And now that we know these answers, we’re challenged as to what we’re going to do going forward, which is going to be, I think, one of the biggest challenges our church faces for the next several years. The responses from the surveys, be it the clergy survey or the presvyteres survey, exceed the questions that we asked. That’s how deeply our clergy need our—

Mr. Marianes: What do you mean it exceeded it? I’m not sure I understand what you’re saying there.

Dr. Koulianos: So we asked 100 questions. We got 200 comments.

Mr. Marianes: Oh wow! What a robust dataset!

Dr. Koulianos: Every person that participated in the survey, it seemed like, wrote a comment. [Inaudible] And some of them are like a page long! And it’s just… You realize how powerful, how great the need is from this. So now we created the program based on our research. So we have 140 clergy that are part of the Ministerial Excellence Program; that’s roughly a quarter of our clergy. And they participate in the Dave Ramsey program. They’re mentored by Fr. Al Demos. And then, once they complete Ramsey, they’ve completed their mentoring, then they qualify for a $10,000 grant that they can use for debt reduction. Because they’ve participated in the program, they’ve reduced their debt by an additional $1.40 for every dollar they’ve received. So we know the Ministerial Excellence Program works, and, again, the comments we’ve received of thanks and appreciation, and how transformative this program has been for the clergy that have participated is just very humbling.

A key point, though, that’s important is the seed that started all this was the work that we did with Fr. Paul Kaplanis, Fr. Paul Costopoulos, and Fr. Demetri Tsigas of blessed memory, who chaired specific programs within the clergy task force. It was their work that started our work for the Lilly Endowment. So again it’s the Atlanta strategic plan and its vision and foresight that was the seed that got us to here.

Mr. Marianes: Yeah, George, thank you for connecting all those dots here, but I think if you could spend just a little bit more of sharing some of the astounding conclusions that you reached from looking at the data of the Ministerial Excellence Program and the pressures that are being faced by clergy and their families—because, as you said, for most of us, we had no clue what was going on, and therefore we were—making an excuse here, but we were kind of unable to fix it. But now we have a lot of information, so what are some of the biggest insights that you’ve taken away from that extraordinary research that y’all did?

Dr. Koulianos: What we found is that we have an older population of clergy that live in high cost-of-living areas that on average tend to be paid less than the averages that are assigned based on the salary scale. On top of that, the majority of our clergy are working anywhere from 70 to greater—from 50 to greater than 70 hours a week.

Mr. Marianes: Wow. That’s the majority of clergy, right?

Dr. Koulianos: That’s three quarters of the clergy; that’s their average workload. And we validated that a couple of different ways. We’ve done it with the presvytera dataset, we’ve done it in Atlanta, and we’ve done it within the Clergy Initiative initial dataset. And clergy love being clergy.

And when we look at their health and wellness, we see that, you know, it’s not unusual for a lot of them to just have sort of a lack of interest or pleasure in doing things, or trouble falling asleep, or just feeling tired and having little energy. Many of our clergy don’t take even two weeks of vacation! What’s interesting is the overwhelming majority of our parishes are in excellent financial shape.

Mr. Marianes: You’re talking about within the GOA, right?

Dr. Koulianos: Correct, in the GOA.

Mr. Marianes: Because it does vary. It does vary some, jurisdiction by jurisdiction.

Dr. Koulianos: But what we find is that 37% of our clergy express the parish financial culture, when it comes to their compensation and benefits, is difficult or poor.

Mr. Marianes: Oof.

Dr. Koulianos: And that the majority of our clergy have less than $50,000 saved. A large percentage of our clergy live paycheck to paycheck, or can skip a check on occasion. A lot of them just have very little saved. I mean, it’s just amazing. They’re literally living paycheck to paycheck! When you see some of the grant requests that we’ve received, it’s embarrassing for me as a layman to know that our clergy are not being cared for the way they deserve to be cared for, or the way they care for us.

Mr. Marianes: Right. And again, when you start to look even beyond, into some of the other jurisdictions, you’ll see that the pressures are even more acute. In some of the jurisdictions, literally more than 50% of the clergy have to be bi-vocational. There is nowhere near enough resources to allow them to raise their families, and so they actually have to have their own day jobs on top of that, which puts even more pressure on everybody.

Dr. Koulianos: You’re absolutely correct.

Mr. Marianes: What you’re pointing out here, bottom line, is we now know empirically we’ve got a lot of work that we need to do in this regard, right?

Dr. Koulianos: Correct. It’s the fundamental building block of a vibrant, healthy parish. Lilly Endowment recognizes that across all denominations.

Mr. Marianes: Okay. Well, that’s important; we’re going to come back to that. Let’s shift the focus a little bit. Pres. Nicole, would you please share with people a little bit about the National Sisterhood of Presvyteres, its role and its mission within the Church and the clergy family?

Presv. Nicole: Absolutely. I’d be happy to. First of all, we are celebrating our 40th anniversary this year.

Mr. Marianes: Oh, congratulations!

Presv. Nicole: Thank you. It was in 1982 that the National Sisterhood of Presvyteres officially began as a body, at that Clergy-Laity Congress in San Francisco. So this was under the guidance and with the blessings of Archbishop Iakovos of blessed memory, and the founders developed the mission of the sisterhood and a constitution. The mission is simple. It’s to promote the spirit of Christian love among the presvyteres of the GOA.

Mr. Marianes: Wait, wait. Say it again. Say it again, because that’s really powerful.

Presv. Nicole: To promote the spirit of Christian love among the presvyteres of the GOA.

Mr. Marianes: Wonderful.

Presv. Nicole: To provide opportunities for presvyteres to get acquainted with one another.

Mr. Marianes: Beautiful.

Presv. Nicole: And to meet periodically to discuss mutual concerns and to develop programs for outreach.

Mr. Marianes: Excellent! That’s beautiful!

Presv. Nicole: So that’s all we’re about, just to be there for each other, to offer support. We appreciate and we understand that we’re all unique, but we share a common bond of supporting our husbands in their ministry. We have some that are professional women with their own wonderful careers; we have others who are teachers, others who work outside the home full-time, part-time; some that stay home and take care of their families full-time. We each have our own path, but our bond is that we all support our husbands in their ministry.

So that is who we are, and we, through the years, have developed—and we have a board. So we have our officers. We also have a representative from each metropolis in the Archdiocese, as well as a widowed presvytera representative, and a retired presvytera representative. And then we have some standing committees.

We have a presvytera who is our caregiver connection, so she tries to send cards and just to say to presvyteres who act as caregivers, if it’s parents or a spouse or a child or an aunt or an uncle—somebody, if they are serving as a caregiver to somebody, she just reaches out every once in a while: “We’re thinking of you. We pray you’re doing well.” Just to reach out and connect.

We also have… So a fun one is the Sister-to-Sister. So when a young man is ordained as a deacon, at that point we send a welcome box to the new diakonissa, the deacon’s wife, welcoming her into the National Sisterhood.

Mr. Marianes: Oh how wonderful!

Presv. Nicole: We just have different contact information…

Mr. Marianes: Resources, yeah.

Presv. Nicole: Absolutely. And also then, the metropolis representative, of the metropolis that she’s in, will assign her to a presvytera within the metropolis to serve as her big sister, and that is someone to give her that connection when she goes, if there’s an event that they go to, or just someone she can talk to for advice or guidance. So we try to make that connection.

We also have—we offer a retreat every two years, a national presvytera retreat. With COVID, things got a little messed up, but we did have one this past fall in Oakbrook, Illinois, and we had a fabulous turn-out. We probably had about 90 presvyteres that attended.

Mr. Marianes: Oh wow! That’s great.

Presv. Nicole: And it was wonderful, and it was so good to be together. It just gives a time to retreat away, to step away from your parish life and parish duties, to relax. It’s a safe place, because we’re all in the same boat. And it’s really—it allows bonds to be made, and just fun and relaxation.

So those are some of the different committees we have. We have a newsletter that goes out quarterly, and we also keep a wonderful email list. I keep hearing from the priests, “If it wasn’t for the presvyteres, we wouldn’t know what was going on with each other,” because we send out emails. [Laughter] If we receive the information on if there’s a death in the immediate family of the priest and presvytera, or a birth, or there’s a prayer request—somebody’s going in for a surgery or something, and they’re just asking for prayers, and we send the email out to the presvyteres.

Mr. Marianes: Beautiful.

Presv. Nicole: We just want to stay connected. We just want to be connected.

Mr. Marianes: And I love that it’s called the “Sisterhood.” How appropriate, a clear explanation and a metaphor that is for the relationship that you’re looking to establish and form. So that’s beautiful. And I’m sure that helps with some of the issues that we talked about at the beginning.

Presv. Nicole: Absolutely, and actually our patron saints are the sisters of Lazarus, Mary and Martha. And actually their feast day is this Saturday, I think is the fourth of June. That is the feast day.

Mr. Marianes: That’s perfect timing for this program, then!

Presv. Nicole: It absolutely is.

Mr. Marianes: There you go. We’re going to celebrate that feast day just a few days early. Excellent. And we’re going to come back to this, because this is an integral part of what we’re talking about tonight. But to kind of wrap up the perspective here, Dr. George the Younger, Dr. Stavros, would you be kind enough to kind of set the stage with some of the key points of the presvytera research study that you recently undertook?

Dr. Stavros: Sure. So this survey, this research, is actually the third in a series of research partnerships between our Danielsen Institute team and the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. The first one was specifically with clergy and clergy stress, and some of the things that you shared at the beginning of the program, Bill, the results from that really mirrored the things that you were pointing out in terms of the impact of stress, burnout, and actually levels of traumatic stress that our clergy in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese experience. And I would assume that that cuts across the different ethnic groups in Orthodoxy.

Mr. Marianes: Jurisdictions, yeah.

Dr. Stavros: Yeah, jurisdictions. The second was in 2016, a study that was specifically on financial literacy, which was part of the Clergy Initiative that George K. was describing. And so this survey was really intended to focus on the life of the presvyteres, the clergy spouses. And to incorporate that wise and almost counter-intuitive piece of life—finances, and the impact of finances and financial well-being on presvyteres—but to not just leave it at that, but also to look at things like their overall well-being and resilience. So this particular research looked at those three things: financial well-being— Sure, go ahead.

Mr. Marianes: Go ahead, finish those three conclusions; then I want to come back to something. Go ahead and say what you were saying. So we have financial well-being…

Dr. Stavros: Financial well-being, overall well-being—which is, you know, spiritual, emotional, relation well-being, health, things like that—and then resilience: to look at things that we might identify that contribute to people living the challenging life that they do in clergy families. Where are we seeing resilience show itself, and is there anything that we can learn and replicate from that.

Mr. Marianes: Give us a little bit more guidance on that, for those of us not as astute in the clinical fields as you all are. When you all talk about resilience, give us some examples of the kinds of manifestations we would see of that.

Dr. Stavros: So one of the ways that we thought about it in terms of just picking instruments to get a measure, get a sense of resilience, it really was two-fold. One was to use some quantitative measures, to look at ways in which presvyteres who endured maybe having some mental health struggles, maybe having some more difficult financial predicaments, maybe some family stressors or difficult parishes—still showed in their results higher levels of overall well-being.

Mr. Marianes: Wow.

Dr. Stavros: And that raised the question for us: Why was that? Why was it that some people with really difficult factors in their life still were coming across as having basically a strong sense of well-being. As we go into this some more, I can actually name what some of those things turned out to be.

Mr. Marianes: Oh, okay, great. Yeah, I want to hear that, because that is a very powerful conclusion, and it’s somewhat counter-intuitive, when you start to see all these other stressors increase, I think. So, yeah. Oh, awesome! Okay, we’re going to— I’ve got one more quick high-level question, then we’re going to take a break, and then we’re going to start digging into this in much greater detail.

So this is kind of for all three of you. Based on the research I did to kind of prepare my thoughts for the opening, I was absolutely fascinated, in a very bad sort of way, by the overwhelming feelings of loneliness that are sometimes experienced so frequently and so intensely by the wives of clergy. And so I’m hoping that maybe y’all can share some insights as to the findings regarding the loneliness that [is] experienced by clergy spouses. So both from the research that you did, and, Pres., from your experiences, what can you share with us there?

Presv. Nicole: Who’s going first? Go ahead, George.

Dr. Stavros: I can just throw in some numbers. Nicole, I’ll just throw out some of the numbers, and then I think you’ve got the most to say about this, just from your experience and your contact with the other presvyteres.

Presv. Nicole: [Laughter] Yeah.

Dr. Stavros: So in the research findings, we asked. We asked—we had a statement that said, “The life of a presvytera can be lonely.” That’s all it said. And then: Do you strongly disagree with that or strongly agree with that, on a six-point scale. What we found was that half of the respondents were a “strongly agree,” the highest number, six, that they strongly agree with that. And another 20% were at a five.

Mr. Marianes: Wow! Oh my goodness!

Dr. Stavros: 70%, more than two out of three presvyteres endures at a really high level that loneliness is one of the most problematic aspects of the kind of support that they need and are not getting within the situations that they have. I’ll just share that.

Mr. Marianes: That’s staggering! I mean, that is huge! Wow. Okay, that’s a biggie. Pres., what color can you give us? What color commentary can you give us on that actually tragically high number?

Presv. Nicole: Well, yeah, it is. It is really staggering even to hear that again. Well, let’s see, first of all, I think it was—I don’t know, I think it was Dr. George Stavros that said our husbands are putting in 50 to 70-plus hours a week. So, you know, that’s lonely for the wife. It’s not a 9-to-5 job where he comes home, has dinner, and he’s home for the evening. Oftentimes he comes home, he has dinner, and he’s out the door again because there’s meetings in the evening or appointments. We realize that all the people at church are volunteers, so they have to do it. They have to have their meetings and all that in the evenings when they’re not working. So that means he’s usually away from home and working.

So the wife is… Really, if there’s children at home, young children, it’s all on her to get dinner going, get them running to sports or lessons or whatever; get homework done, get them off to bed, and all that. And oftentimes he comes home after the kids are in bed. So there’s loneliness there.

Also, I think many presvyteres realize that it’s probably healthier to not have close confidantes in the parish.

Mr. Marianes: Wow.

Presv. Nicole: You know, you can’t… Women are social beings, for the most part, and they need that good girlfriend to be able to talk to or sometimes vent or whatever, and you don’t want to air that to a parishioner. You have to be careful. You want to keep the dignity of the priesthood, and you know… You have to be very careful. So it’s really healthier to have friends outside of the church, or other presvyteres. If you’re in an area where there’s other presvyteres, other churches around, maybe you can connect that way. And they truly will understand you. But it could be through school, friends of your kids, school parents, or things like that. But healthier to be outside of the parish.

But oftentimes it’s hard. It’s hard to make those connections. So those kinds of things. Those are some of the things right off the top that I’m thinking of that make it lonely. The fishbowl is another thing. People… I will say, and I do feel—I truly do believe that the majority of our parishioners love us and they only want… They mean well. I truly believe that. But, that’s not to say that they’re not going to be paying more attention as to what you’re doing, what your kids are doing, how they’re behaving, what they’re wearing, what they act, what you say, what you don’t say, what you volunteer for, what you don’t volunteer for—all of that. It’s just—it’s going to happen. So the fishbowl life can be lonely.

Mr. Marianes: Mm-hmm. Listen, I really appreciate your giving us that cogent commentary and that perspective that I think is important for all of us on the outside to understand. Even when we’re trying hard, sometimes we actually put more pressure in that regard. In my ministry, I’m always talking to churches, and I know that every night when I’m not on the air, I have a conference call or a Zoom call, and there’s always a clergyman on that line, and I know that there’s a presvytera or there’s a family now that’s not there because that was when his parish council or his stewardship committee could be available. So I just think that’s something for all of us to remember.

Now, we are going to go to break right now, but I can’t help myself, because a good friend of mine, Pres. Mary, is on the phone, and I have learned that when Pres. Mary has something to say, I’d better shut up and let her say it! So, Pres., are you with us?

Presv. Mary Christy: I sure am, thank you!

Presv. Nicole: Hi, Mary!

Presv. Mary: I love all of you. I love all of you! I just wanted to make sure I said that. Hello, Bill, how are you doing? Christos anesti, everybody! I know tonight’s the last night we say it, so Christos anesti!

Mr. Marianes: Alithos!

Presv. Nicole: Alithos anesti!

Dr. Koulianos: Alithos anesti!

Presv. Mary: Thank you. The one thing I wanted to bring up—well, first of all, to have all four of you together is amazing, and George Stavros, the younger George, was in our wedding; Nicole is my dear friend—we talk about confidantes: she is my sister in Christ, somebody I go to, and she can come to me in full confidence, and I enjoy that relationship—and George Koulianos, what can I tell you? We’ve known each other and served together as well as Bill and I. Now we do this on this committee together, but I’m so honored and proud to just have all of you together and discussing this very important topic that we are going to, as you will learn later, catapult into helping so many of our clergy families. I wanted to share the Benevolent Fund, and I didn’t know, Nicole, if you wanted to talk about that.

Presv. Nicole: Yeah.

Mr. Marianes: Oh, yes, please! Yeah, yeah, let’s do that.

Presv. Nicole: I totally— Yeah, I’m glad you did that. I totally forgot.

Presv. Mary: No, that’s not an oversight. That’s really what brought all of us into congruence, because, as the national vice-president, that is something I have been responsible for for four years; Nicole was responsible for it for two years. As she said, years and years ago, the clergy found out: Well, if we give it to the presvyteres to oversee, most likely it’s going to be done very well, and so they did.

And we here, in fact, had a case today, and Nicole and I—I was so happy, I texted three other administrators and said, “I thank God for this case, because we have the money to give,” and so we have now two areas where we are able to help, and national Philoptochos, of course, also gives money towards this endeavor for us, and then of course, now combined with the Lilly Endowment, we’ve renamed it to be the Clergy Family Initiative, we have these avenues to help our clergy families. I was thinking about it, Bill, and George Stavros, and Dr. George Koulianos, and everybody, Nicole—thinking about it. I married Father when I was 25 years old, and I’ll soon be, in two years be 60.

Mr. Marianes: You don’t have to confess that, now! You can keep secrets on this program. [Laughter] But you just shared it with everybody in the world now! So…

Presv. Mary: Yeah, it’s all right. I feel blessed.

Mr. Marianes: The cat’s out of the bag. Either that, or you’re soliciting in advance for your 60th birthday present, so we’ll have to… [Laughter] Share a little bit about the Benevolent Fund. Lay the foundation for that, so everybody understands what you’re talking about.

Presv. Mary: Yeah, so if a clergy or a deacon or a diakonissa or presvytera or a child of a clergy or family member or deacon’s family has a hardship—as long as they’ve served in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, they can come to the national president of the syndesmos, which is the clergy, or the vice-president, or myself as vice-president, or Nicole as president—one of the four administrators—in full confidence—in full confidence: there’s no divulging from this team—and let us know what their struggle is, the financial struggle, what’s going on. We’re usually in an emergency situation. And we—I present the cases to the coordinator, and we usually, in most cases, approve. And then we pay the vendors, and then we’re audited. Every time we get together for national Clergy-Laity, the books are brought, and the audit team is there to review the disbursements that we have.

We do a Gifts of Love solicitation in February, surrounded by valentines is sort of our concept, and we receive funds, usually between $28-30,000. Everybody wants to give; everybody wants to help the clergy and their families. The issue recently has been that we were in a downward distribution, and I think that had something to do with the Lilly Foundation funds from the Clergy Initiative, and the ability for them to do the Dave Ramsey course and receive the grant funding that way. So we think that there is some interrelationship there, but for the most part we’re here to help, and we’re grateful to help, and we want to help.

Mr. Marianes: So that’s another wonderful initiative that I want the listeners to be aware of that’s something that, as you start to think—remember, at the beginning we challenged you to think: What can I do to help our clergy, and what can I do to help our families? And the Benevolent Fund is another way in which you can direct some of your generosity and some of your stewardship dollars that will have a meaningful impact at the time of greatest need, and that’s really a wonderful opportunity. Pres., thanks for sharing that with us, and thanks for everything that you do and all the great work that you do in supporting everybody else in this regard, including the other presvyteres in our metropolis. So thank you very much for calling in. You’ve got something else you’ve got to get off your chest?

Presv. Mary: No, I think that’s the main thing.

Mr. Marianes: That was a great one.

Presv. Mary: I appreciate that. We love you, and I want others to call in. I’m so grateful that you’re sharing all of this information.

Mr. Marianes: All right. Well, that’s fantastic. So here’s what we’re going to do. We’re going to take a short break right now, and when we return we’re going to get some more of the details regarding the unique challenges and issues that are facing our spouses and families of our clergy, with my special guests Dr. George Koulianos, Dr. George Stavros, and Presvytera Nicole Keares. Please remember that we would love your questions and comments, like Presv. Mary’s questions and comments. You can call us at 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346. So let’s take a short break, and we’ll be right back.

Mr. Marianes: So welcome back to Stewardship Calling and our first-Wednesday program. We’re exploring some of the unique challenges and issues that are facing the spouses and families of our clergy, with my special guests Dr. George the Younger, Dr. George the Older, Presvytera Nicole the “I ain’t tellin’ ya where I fit in the spectrum here”— [Laughter] We’re going to leave some of these secrets out there. Please remember, we’d love to hear your calls at 1-855-AF-RADIO; that’s 1-855-237-2346. I want to thank those that have tuned in live, not only on Ancient Faith Radio, but we have folks that have tuned in our YouTube channel, where we’re broadcasting live, and on Facebook. So thank you to all of you.

All right, Pres. Nicole and Dr. Stavros, would you discuss how the research that we’ve been able to do now is driving some of the tangible presvytera wellness program that we’ve got going on?

Presv. Nicole: George, you want to start?

Dr. Stavros: Sure, I can. Yeah, I’ll throw in a couple really specific things. The first is that it’s just… The argument is over; now it’s just the subtleties. Financial well-being is just really good for clergy families, and yet it’s so elusive. One of the things that the research that the Danielsen team showed was that financial well-being, by itself, meaning, it wasn’t other factors affecting things; financial well-being had its own unique contribution to lowering depression, to presvyteres having fewer spiritual struggles, like less guilt, less conflict within the parish, less anger with God, less feeling lost or abandoned by God, and higher levels of flourishing: more meaning in life, a greater sense of integrity. So financial well-being has its very own special contribution, so when we talk about: How does that connect to programming? It’s such a validation of the programming that’s going on right now in the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese with the Clergy Initiative, with the grants that are available to the clergy families. That’s something that absolutely has to stay in place, along with whatever structural and organizational programming and decisions there are around how priests and clergy families are compensated. It’s absolutely—it’s incontrovertible: financial well-being matters a lot.

Mr. Marianes: And that’s a real critical point that I don’t want anybody else to miss, and this is that the dataset that you have is very much focused within the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese, but there’s no question that it is as applicable—if not, in some cases, even more applicable, because of the financial pressures that exist even outside the GOA ecosphere. And so as we start to think—as we on the laity side of the equation start to think about things that we can do to make a substantial difference in the lives of our clergy and our clergy wives and families, we now have undeniable, as George said, empirical data that says that is one of the most important things that we need to focus our attention on. And so that’s, by the way, my brothers and sisters in laity in your churches, that you need to start spending some brain cycles and time on, is to really ensure that the financial well-being of your clergy and clergy family is kind of, as much as possible, taken off the plate, so that all these other benefits that George Stavros mentioned can be realized.

Dr. Koulianos: And if I might add, Bill, one of the key points is that hard datasets are sufficiently powered to be statistically significant with a quarter of clergy responding to our initial survey, and 41% of presvyteres responding to the presvyteres survey. So we have a very large sample size.

Mr. Marianes: Yeah, and so for those of you that are not as familiar with the terminology that Dr. Koulianos just mentioned, what that means is that when you have enough responses and a big enough set of responses, you now can be very, very confident on the reliability of the data that you have and the conclusions that you can reach from that. So it’s not just the one-off survey, it’s not just the “I talked to two people, and this is what they told me”; what we’re really understanding is now this is real, and it’s definitely available to us to be understood.

Dr. Koulianos: Correct.

Presv. Nicole: And if I can add, I think all lay people—everyone can understand the idea that financial well-being… You know, I think if any family is struggling financially, there’s going to be depression, anxiety. I think that’s across the board. I think what stands a little different with the clergy is that our husband’s salary is dependent upon the income that comes into the church, through stewardship, etc. And I think that’s where our husbands feel that sense of they have to… I mean, really, sort of overcompensate in what they’re administering, so that a church hopefully is able to respond.

Mr. Marianes: Right.

Dr. Stavros: And the questions that I asked— I’m sorry, forgive me for interrupting.

Presv. Nicole: No, no, go ahead.

Dr. Stavros: So one of the questions when I’ve traveled to every metropolis in the country and spoken at every clergy retreat, in addition to lay leadership programs, etc. There’s a couple thousand people at the minimum, if not more, and at the clergy retreats, I sort of asked a generic question: How many of you have foregone a pay raise because you didn’t want to affect your church in any way? And when you look at all the clergy that nod in the audience, you realize that what Presvytera Nicole is saying here is truly accurate and spot-on. Clergy are selfless, and they will sacrifice for their families and themselves for the well-being of their parishes.

Mr. Marianes: Yeah, and I think that is a critically important point that, again, people don’t see. When you approve a budget and you see a number in there, okay, that’s just a number in there. What you don’t realize is what they sacrificed and what they said, “No, the church can’t afford any more. Let’s not do this.” There’s a flip-side of that, George, and I know that because you’ve traveled so much, as I have done, talking with clergy, that they will often pay for things out of their own pocket that don’t ever even show up on any P&L that really is an expense of the parish and stuff like that. Rather than going and asking and stuff like that, there is just so much that they just do, and I’ve seen the same thing happen for presvyteres—and it extends to others, Sunday school teachers and things of that nature, but I think that the level of sacrifice is sometimes not visible to us, when all we see is a number on a P&L.

Dr. Stavros: You’re absolutely right, Bill.

Mr. Marianes: Yeah. Now, while we were talking, we had a caller call in who has a sore throat and didn’t want to ask the question, but Laura had called in and was referring to some of the letters that I read at the beginning from that research study. And so the question is kind of: What’s an appropriate request for help, and how can we help? So if you were thinking about it from the perspective of: now those letters were letters that the psychologist asked clergy wives to write in an imaginary sense to the parish; they were never sent to the parish—and yet, to me they were very poignant, and you validated that that is indeed the real sentiment, and the data shows us that.

So as we start to think about what are some—and I know I’m jumping a little bit ahead here, but I want to respect our caller’s question here, because I think it’s a great one. And that is: What are some of the ways in which we can actually receive requests for help—in other words, what are ways that our presvyteres and their families can raise their hand and ask for help? And, more importantly to some extent, what are some of the things we can do to help? Maybe we anticipate needs and things of that nature. So this is kind of a shopping-list type exercise. What are some of the things we could do there?

Dr. Stavros: There are several levels when you look at it. Many of the metropolises actually have funds to assist clergy and clergy families in need. No one knew how much was actually being raised and spent for that up until we asked the question, and it turned out to be several thousand dollars a year. But above and beyond that, Pres. Mary Christy and Pres. Nicole touched on their fund, and then the Lilly Endowment grant affords clergy the opportunity to participate in Dave Ramsey, and then there’s a COV-Aid funding as well. So there’s several avenues; there’s several levels of opportunity there.

Mr. Marianes: And I guess, in addition to that, George, for those either jurisdictions or churches or organizations that don’t have such funds, then that’s something that everybody ought to be thinking about. In other words, we ought to start to be raising money and creating funds for those needs that clergy and clergy families have.

Dr. Stavros: Correct. That’s part of my close.

Mr. Marianes: Oh, okay. Well, all right. If you’ve got a close, man, I’m all about saving the close for the close! So I’ll park it there. Laura, stay listening, and we’re going to get to that. But one of the things that I kind of also wanted to get a little bit more details on and maybe, George, while we’ve got you on the phone, and Pres., maybe you can discuss the multi-part presvytera financial wellness series that is now available and is being offered. What’s included in that, and what are some of the benefits you’re seeing from it?

Dr. Koulianos: So the financial wellness program for presvyteres was the offshoot of what we’ve learned through Dr. Stavros’s dataset. But actually the Metropolis of San Francisco asked us in 2020 to create a financial literacy Zoom series for clergy. Actually, it was 2021; it was last summer. And it took on a life of its own. It was a multi-month series, with Presvytera Maria Antokas and I co-chaired it, and we realized that we have more than just clergy as our target audience. All those series, that entire program has been videotaped, it’s been edited, and it’s going to be posted on the clergy private website. So from that, Presv. Antokas and Presv. Nicole and Presv. Mary Christy and from Dr. Stavros’s dataset, we’ve realized that there’s some unique women’s issues, and we’ve created an entire new program that builds on the strengths of the Metropolis of San Francisco program, but adds additional programming that’s specific to presvyteres and to women, and also to widowed presvyteres, there’s a whole entire program, and that program will launch in August/September, and it will run through February.

Mr. Marianes: Is it a video series, George?

Dr. Koulianos: Yes, it will be a video series. It will happen roughly every two weeks. We’re securing speakers now. We have our first three speakers. What is it, an 11-, 12-part series, Presv. Nicole? I forgot off the top of my head.

Presv. Nicole: I see ten. I think we narrowed it to ten, yes. Or, I’m sorry, 11 with your initial one to start off: 11.

Mr. Marianes: All right, so there’s an introduction and then a ten-part program.

Presv. Nicole: Yes.

Dr. Koulianos: And that program is through the generosity of the Metropolis of San Francisco Ladies’ Philoptochos, so thank all of you there and the generous benefactors in the Metropolis of San Francisco who have underwritten that program. It wouldn’t have happened without their kindness. Thank you.

Presv. Nicole: Absolutely.

Mr. Marianes: Awesome. Thank you, Jeannie, and everybody else.

Presv. Nicole: One of the important things, I think, in financial wellness, and I think as a new clergy couple, when it comes to the first tax season as a clergy family.

Mr. Marianes: [Laughter] Oh my goodness, yes!

Presv. Nicole: Clergy taxes are a totally different beast! I will say in the 30 years now that we’re going to be married this year, I think in the last two years I finally feel very, very secure with what we’re doing, because every year you learn something new. It’s a very different way of preparing your taxes, and it’s really important that every clergy family find an accountant that knows clergy taxes, and the best way to do that is talk to other clergy couples and see whom they use in your area. I’m telling you, it can make or break you. If they don’t do it right, it’s awful. Clergy taxes are huge.

Mr. Marianes: Well, a million years ago when I was in law school and we were taking personal income tax, we actually spent a week, a whole week, just discussing—and that’s long ago—

Presv. Nicole: I’m impressed, yes.

Mr. Marianes: —the very significant nuances of clergy and related special filing things. So there’s an example of how you could get wrapped up in the wrong direction if you’re not paying attention to it. Again, these are the kinds of things that lay people don’t ordinarily think about, but that’s a critical important part of the exercise, having that. And I’m hoping that, George and George and Pres., eventually in the fullness of time, these wonderful materials that you’re putting together can be produced in such a way that we can even broaden the audience and include all of the other jurisdictions and their clergy spouses in something like this, because I think that sounds like an invaluable thing. Just as an aside, I did a stewardship program once, and I got approached by a presvytera widow, who just kind of pulled me aside and said, “You know, I just wish there were more things to help us.” And I thought, “Wow, I didn’t realize it was a big need, but I guess it is,” and here you are, talking about fulfilling that. So God bless you on that.

Presv. Nicole: We’re really so excited about this program starting up the end of August. I know it’ll be a great—we’ll have a great response to it. Just seeing the topics, the different things, from wills and trusts to retirement planning and how to budget and meeting with a financial planner—just so many different topics that are just going to be so useful, and the fact that it will be recorded and they can go back and watch it again and again if they need to.

Mr. Marianes: Yeah, that’s powerful. That’s powerful.

Dr. Koulianos: As a side note, Nick Furris is kind enough to do this for a very, very reasonable sum. He’s donating the majority of the time and labor to videotape all these programs to put them on the presvytera website. So I’d like to recognize him.

Mr. Marianes: Oh, good. Well, then we know it’ll be high quality, too, so that’s great.

Presv. Nicole: Absolutely, and another really important topic that will be covered in that session will be regarding the clergy pension. Thank God we have that, and the security, knowing that we have security in our future, in our retirement years. We thank God, we thank the Archdiocese that that is set in place.

Mr. Marianes: And again, this is another one of those— I’m sorry. I didn’t mean to interrupt you; go ahead.

Presv. Nicole: No, that’s okay. Go ahead.

Mr. Marianes: No, I was going to say, that was a long-fought battle within the GOA, and I will tell you that that battle has not yet been fully engaged in some of the other jurisdictions, and I would urge us all—all Orthodox faithful—to come to come together to recognize that just ensuring the financial security and retirement of our clergy is a critically important thing that we can all commit ourselves to doing something about, regardless of your jurisdiction. I think that’s something that needs more attention across the board.

Now, one of the other things that y’all are doing that came out of the data—and maybe, George Stavros, you can start us out with this, and, Pres., you can jump in—is the presvytera peer learning groups. So can you share a little bit with us about how they work and what you’re trying to accomplish with that?

Dr. Stavros: Sure. So the peer learning groups really are something that have emerged of years and years of work through the Lilly Foundation, outside of the Orthodox jurisdictions, and actually have entered into the Orthodox world through some of the jurisdictions other than the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. So the first clergy peer learning groups were established, I think through the work of some of the Antiochian clergy and some of the OCA clergy. Now there’s a really good mix of inter-jurisdictional work on clergy groups.

Mr. Marianes: Excellent.

Dr. Stavros: There haven’t been as many clergy-spouse peer groups, but the reason these groups are at the forefront of the recommendations that come out of a study like this is that Lilly really learned over decades, through other denominations, that this was such a perfectly targeted format to address the major finding of this study from a relational perspective, and that’s the loneliness, the unique situations that clergy and clergy spouses experience, really having most of the time to cut themselves off or save or protect part of themselves and their family life from the life of the parish community, out of necessity in an appropriate, boundaried way. And the relentlessness of the rhythms of life of a clergy family just expose the family to so much stress.

And the difference between stress and traumatic stress oftentimes is attuned, loving relationship. That’s the buffer; that’s the special sauce. That’s the protective thing. And by attuned, I mean somebody having the sense that not only do they have someone there with them, but they are with people who understand, underneath the skin, what life is like, in a way that just resonates and is… It matches their experience—

Mr. Marianes: Yeah, it’s not just empathetic; it’s experience. It’s a lived experience. They actually have to get it.

Dr. Stavros: Yes. Yes, down to the bones. And what Lilly has found is these peer learning groups, when they are facilitated skillfully and wisely, create such an uptick in overall well-being for clergy and clergy spouses that the outcomes that many parish councils might be interested in, for clergy and clergy spouses participating in these groups, the communities themselves experience higher attendance, more generous financial stewardship, higher levels of lay participation in the life of the community. That’s only related to when their clergy or their clergy spouses are participating in a peer group. So that’s why this is such an important thing to try to replicate and have as available as possible.

Mr. Marianes: So I just want to make sure that we shine the spotlight on that, George. So what you’re telling us, and what I hope all the laity are listening, is that by the participation and the encouragement of participation in these peer learning groups amongst the clergy and the presvyteres, we can now demonstrate that there are measurable improvements that the parish will experience in multiple different facets. So this isn’t just making the clergy and their spouses’ lives better, although it clearly is that, but we can now demonstrate empirically that that will actually improve things within the parish. So this is a very, very wise investment.

Dr. Stavros: Exactly.

Dr. Koulianos: In some ways, it’s the most efficient wise investment a parish can make.

Mr. Marianes: Yeah.

Dr. Koulianos: And a lot of that data is published in this book called So Much Better: How Thousands of Pastors Help Each Other Thrive, and it’s a summary of what Dr. Stavros just referenced, and you can buy it on Amazon for $4.39 used.

Mr. Marianes: [Laughter] You’re a good salesman! What’s the name of that book again?

Dr. Koulianos: So Much Better: How Thousands of Pastors Help Each Other Thrive.

Mr. Marianes: All right. So I think that’s got to be on every parish council’s assigned reading list, because not only will you be serving in a very righteous and appropriate, Christ-centered way your clergyman and their family, you will also be directly resulting in positive improvements on the parish as a whole. That’s a heck of an investment when you can do that!

One of the other things that I think came out of y’all’s research that I hope that you all will touch a little bit about is also the overall wellness of clergy families and how [much] of an impact clergy family wellness has on the parish and its ministries. George Koulianos, I’ve heard you talking about that, but, Stavros—one of y’all take us away through that journey, because I’ve been impressed.

Dr. Stavros: I’ll just share a quick—

Dr. Koulianos: Yes, George Stavros should take that.

Dr. Stavros: How about this? I’ll give the short story, and George K. can give the long story. [Laughter]

Mr. Marianes: Okay, we’ll let the old guy wander around a little bit. Okay, that’s all right. [Laughter]

Dr. Stavros: I think that would be best. So there were a few key factors that influenced overall well-being for the presvyteres. Couple satisfaction and family well-being was at the top. In other words—

Mr. Marianes: Couple satisfaction?

Dr. Stavros: Couple satisfaction and family well-being, which in this study were very closely related to one another. They had similar impact and were related to each other. But higher level of couple satisfaction and family well-being were key factors in influencing overall well-being, things like health, mental health. When marriage and family life were experienced as satisfying, it was a protective factor against, so that stress was less likely to become traumatic stress.

Mr. Marianes: Yeah, you had a good partner that you can rely on and trust and feel comfortable with.

Dr. Stavros: Yes, and along with that, things that helped along couple satisfaction and family well-being, that were part of that: vacation time, agreement about finances. And through the kinds of questions that we asked, one of the really interesting things was we found a group, the resilient group of presvyteres were much more likely to report that their husbands spent some time with them on his day off.

Mr. Marianes: Oh! So that’s really important. So, going back to that earlier conversation you and I had about resilience, those presvyteres that can overcome all of these negative sentiments and still thrive, that one of those things that made them so or helped them was that on the priest’s day off—which sometimes is a bit of a joke, given the emergencies, but theoretically—that they spent time together.

Dr. Stavros: That’s right.

Mr. Marianes: And the vacation piece, which Dr. George Koulianos mentioned earlier—they ain’t takin’ their vacations! So that’s another issue. Yeah, okay, very important.

Dr. Stavros: Absolutely. What’s interesting is when—again, this data comes from Atlanta, and it represented about 69% of all clergy in our metropolis, and it was compiled by Dr. Scott Mondore, who I know you know well, Bill—

Mr. Marianes: One of the best!

Dr. Stavros: —and what he identified is… He’s published two books on this as it relates to the corporate world, but what he found is two of the five most important behaviors that makes a priest effective and sort of being a priest’s priests, two of the five are you have to take your marriage as seriously as the Church, and you cannot ignore your family. That’s in addition to being willing to listen, loving your flock, you don’t treat the priesthood as a job only. And the top two right there are taking your marriage seriously as a church and not ignoring your family. And having that health and well-being is so important, not only for the clergy family, but again, as we’ve said repeatedly, to the vibrancy and the salvific efforts of the parish itself.

Mr. Marianes: And that’s why I think it’s so important. The work that y’all have done to provide empirical, verified data shows something that I think is really critically important that we laymen and laywomen understand, and that is: We have to be partners with our clergy to make sure that they have the time off to refresh, to renew, to pray, to find peace, and also to spend the time with their spouses, because if they do then not only are we serving them and loving them better, but they will also be able to help raise our level of spirituality and growth within the parish. And so, do it for the right reasons—to help our clergy and their families—but also recognize that there will be a direct benefit to the parish as a whole. Folks, just don’t lose sight of that. This is not the opinion of Dr. George Koulianos or Dr. George Stavros or Presvytera Nicole. This is now verified, empirical data that we can act on.

Presv. Nicole: It’s about balance, and it’s about balance. It’s about allowing the priest to balance his work and his family time and not getting burned out, and taking that day off. Granted, we’ve all experienced a funeral that’s going to happen on the day of. I mean, there’s things that happen. An emergency call: that happens. But I would say, as a rule, he needs his day off. When my kids were little and when we lived in Pennsylvania, and that’s when the kids were young and the neighborhood—we had young families all around us. Everybody in the neighborhood, Saturday was the day the dads were cutting the grass and they were running errands and everything like that, and we were running to weddings or baptisms!

Mr. Marianes: Yeah, Fr. Costa’s doing weddings and baptisms! [Laughter]

Presv. Nicole: Right, but, you know, Monday was our Saturday. What was Saturday—that was our day, when he’d cut the grass or he’d be doing chores around the house, things that needed to get done, run errands. That Monday was our Saturday. So they need that. They’re a family like everybody else, and they need that time.

And the vacation time. You know, they need— And I just would hope that every parish will support their priest to take and use his vacation time. It’s so important. And I know in the study we saw that there were families that said they didn’t take vacation time because they couldn’t afford to take vacation time. Well, maybe it’s not a whole week or two weeks at one time. Maybe it’s three-day stints where they can just get away. But throughout the course of the year, it can do wonders for the priest and for his family.

Mr. Marianes: Well, and I’m going to go one step further, and this is me talking now, so you have plausible deniability if you want to disregard everything I’m saying. I would go one step further. I would say that it is an imperative of parish leadership to insist that the clergy take the fullness of their vacation time, even if it has to be spread out in two, three days here and there. And that that is something that you as parish leaders and you as parish parishioners ought to absolutely insist on, even if it requires the physical violence of throwing him out of his office—in a loving way.

Presv. Nicole: [Laughter] Of course!

Mr. Marianes: So that they can do that. Now, and the other thing, too, that I would ask you to think about is: when you know that your clergy has a day off, that is not the day to schedule that committee meeting or that follow-up meeting or that other activity there. Let us be respectful and honor those days, because that’s what we should do if we love them and we love the work that they’re doing for us, but that’s also going to reap benefits for the parish.

Presv. Nicole: And it goes both ways. It goes both ways, because the priest needs to be able to speak up and just say, “I’m not available on that day to meet.” It’s okay to do that. I’ve heard of a priest that he scheduled all of his organizational meetings—parish council, Philoptochos, committee meetings, all of that—

Mr. Marianes: Ministries, yeah.

Presv. Nicole: —the first two weeks of the month. And then the second two weeks of the month were for if there were personal appointments: appointments with individuals or things like that. But it allowed for him to have a bigger chance of more time off, so more evenings off where he would be home with the family.

So it’s all in how— I mean, the priest shouldn’t… You know, our husbands want to serve. That’s why they were called to do what they do. But there’s nothing wrong with setting your limits and balancing everything, and if you’re not available on a given day, you don’t need to tell people, “Well…” If you don’t want to tell people, “It’s my day off,” don’t say it, but just: “I’m not available that night. Can we make it another night?” and offer another suggestion.

Mr. Marianes: Even our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ took time away and took time off and went off to the mountains by himself to pray and to renew and stuff like that. There’s a powerful message in that for prayer and a powerful message in that for other things, but I also think there’s a powerful message in there to remind each and every one of us that we have to share in that responsibility that our clergy and their families are taking care of themselves so that they may have the longevity and the necessary strength to bring us closer to Christ and stuff like that. I mean, I’ll tell you, in our firm, when we realized that that same data that you’re talking about in clergy is no less relevant in other professional environments, when I was managing partner, I just insisted that everyone had to report to me when they were going to take their vacation time. I didn’t care what they did with it—they could sit home and play video games as far as I’m concerned—but we were going to make sure that they had time away and time off so that they could renew and refresh. It’s no less—in fact, it’s even more critical, I would assume, for our clergy.

Now, look, I know we’ve gone long here, but I’ve got one more kind of wrap-up question for the three of you all to kind of throw it in together. So can you please share with us anything our listeners need to know in ways that they can help the critical ministry and the work that you’re doing and any parting words of wisdom? I want you to ask. I want you to be comfortable to ask what it is that we can do to help, because that’s what we’re here to do. That’s what this program is all about: How can we help people and parishes discover and live their calling. So please share with us your asks of things we can do.

Dr. Koulianos: Would you like me to go first, Bill?

Mr. Marianes: I’m hoping you would, because I know you! I know you know how to ask, so you set the tone there. You set the tone there.

Dr. Koulianos: So the first and most important thing is to pray and love your clergy family.

Mr. Marianes: Oh wow. Yeah.

Dr. Koulianos: That’s number one.

Mr. Marianes: Pray for them and love them. That’s powerful, and I hope everybody remembers that as you start thinking of your prayer ritual and your prayer time. Make sure that you’ve included your clergy and their family in there. That’s very powerful.

Dr. Koulianos: The second is parishes need to embrace supporting clergy families and acknowledge that this is the most effective path to a healthy, thriving parish. And a tool you can use for that is the parish council nominee training video series that we prepared a couple of years ago. Dr. Stavros was on it. The clergy that see it break down and cry, because it is so true.

Mr. Marianes: Where can they find that, George? Where can they find that or how can we make that available to our listeners?

Dr. Koulianos: So if you go to goarch.org, and then you go to the search tab: “parish council nominee training video series.”

Mr. Marianes: Parish council nominee training video series.

Dr. Koulianos: Training video series, yes.

Mr. Marianes: At goarch.org.

Dr. Koulianos: We have a train-the-trainer video. It’s metropolis specific. The metropolitan does the open and the close. And we even have a study guide that goes along with that. And our clergy, many of our clergy use it. Many don’t because they’re embarrassed to use it because it’s so true. They don’t want people to think that it’s self-serving. Again, clergy love what they do; our datasets show that. They are all in. They love pastoring, they love working with their parish councils, with lay leaders, with fellow clergy. They are above and beyond devoted to their call.

But the parish council nominee training video series is a very useful tool. Actually, we showed it to Lilly and they were blown away, and they asked us to present it at the last national meeting. And it’s the only thing the Southern Baptists I think have ever asked of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese. [Laughter] It’s how can they get their hands on that video. The Protestant churches were blown away at the quality and how true that video is. The final thing—

Mr. Marianes: And I’d like to extend that offer, even though I don’t have any authority to do it, but I’m going to do it anyway, to all of our other Orthodox brothers and sisters that listen to this program, and any of the other Ancient Faith Radio things: Please feel free to go to that and make that a part of what you’re doing and whatnot, because I think it has been proven to be a very valuable resource. So that’s a great ask, and that’s a great offering, George. Thank you. What else?

Dr. Koulianos: Absolutely. The next thing is, we need a concerted effort across the entire archdiocese, from the metropolis all the way to the national church, to create a clergy family wellness center. The Clergy Family Initiative is now embedded within the Archdiocese Benefits Committee, and what we want to do—and we actually have seed capital; we have a donor that’s committed $200,000 to provide the seed capital to start it—we want to grow it to $4 or $5 million, and we want it embedded within the Archdiocese Benefits Committee so it can be clergy helping clergy. Fr. Jim Greanias and Fr. Costa Sitaras have been instrumental in that. Fr. Costa’s our chair of our Clergy Family Initiative; Fr. Jim is chair of the Archdiocese Benefits Committee. I can’t express in words just how much Fr. Costa means to me and how much he means to the initiative.

Mr. Marianes: And to the entire Church. I mean, he really is a hallmark in so many ways of the kind of quintessential example of committed clergy.

Dr. Koulianos: So that’s the long-term goal. And we think we can make that happen. The need is there. What’s amazing is whenever I speak nationally, the first thing that the lay—the first thing that comes out of the laymen when they do Q&A is: “I wish we would have known sooner.” It’s universal. We have good people in our Church, and they want to take care of our clergy; they just didn’t know how to, and now they do!

Mr. Marianes: Right. So that leads me to a question, and this is a question against your own personal interests, and if Despina is nearby I hope she doesn’t throw something at the microphone here. But one of the things that I want to know is if you are still willing to take this story of the work that Dr. George and Presv. Nicole and everybody else and you have been working on, and Lilly and Fr. Costa have been working on, and take it to the various events and gatherings of clergy and laity as I have heard you do so effectively; is that still something you’re willing to do?

Dr. Koulianos: In the words of the Doobie Brothers, I’m ready to take it to the streets.

Mr. Marianes: [Laughter] There we go! Whoever thought that the Doobie Brothers would find their way into an Orthodox theological work! Okay, so now you did it, brother. So now you have to share with everybody a way that they can reach you so that they can find out how to get on your calendar, because I will tell you, folks, I’ve been blessed to hear George at multiple different metropolises and events—I even [dragged] him up to the Metropolis of Chicago—and for a doctor, he is a really good presenter. (That was intended to be a joke.) [Laughter] But I will tell you that literally, after his presentation—he’s right—the hands go up and he gets mobbed for hours! So he’s worth bringing on, and I know that there are others available to do it. George, how can people reach out to you to avail themselves of your great services?

Dr. Koulianos: So my email address is george dot k-o-u-l-i-a-n-o-s at c-r-m Alabama dot com, and my cell phone is 251‐490‐0495.

Mr. Marianes: Wow. That’s very gracious of you to offer that. Again, I will tell you, folks, this is a story worth hearing and this is a story worth telling, because when George speaks, not only is he an effective spokesman for this cause, but he also has the data that he can cite, chapter and verse, to make sure that everyone listening will be awoken to this challenge. So that’s fantastic. Anything else?

Dr. Koulianos: Thank you, Bill, for your inspiration. Again, it’s no cost to whoever invites us.

Mr. Marianes: God bless you, brother! God bless you, man.

Dr. Koulianos: It is at no cost.

Mr. Marianes: God bless you. All right, Dr. George S. and Pres. Nicole, what else do you have on your wish list here? Go ahead, Pres.

Presv. Nicole: Okay, well, as Dr. George said, first and foremost, pray for your clergy family. And I just— I will say without— I will be so bold as to say, I guess as we said earlier… I mean, we, the GOA has a remuneration scale, and I would hope that, in all fairness to the clergy, that that is considered as budgets are made every year for the parish. But most importantly, love your clergy family. We love you, and we want to serve, and we want to serve together with you. That’s all I have.

Mr. Marianes: Well, that’s—those are very powerful things, and I think this extends to, again, all Orthodox jurisdictions. Now, not all of them have the same pay scale, but I think they ought to be thinking about it, because that’s one of the areas of gaps. Every jurisdiction talks about the clergy shortage that we’re experiencing. It’s not a simple challenge—there’s a lot of reasons and a lot of causal effects of that, but amongst them—and Dr. George Stavros presented that information—is the recognition that if they cannot properly take care of themselves and their families and ensure that their families are not suffering as a result of that, the consequence of that is that the parish suffers.

And so if you want to see a Bernoulli effect; if you want to see a place where you can make an investment and see a multiple-level return—I mean, this is the parable of talents: put it out in the world and cause it to multiply—one of the most important ways you can do that is to invest in the financial security and well-being of your clergy and their families in everything you do. Again, that applies to all jurisdictions, even those that don’t yet have the skill that they should and whatnot, because at the end of the day those clergy have to live in the communities that you live in also. And the importance of the prayer and support and including supporting their peer group networks is also important. That’s wonderful.

All right, George Stavros! Close it out! You can make whatever asks you want. And I want to thank you for the great work that you and the Danielsen Institute have been doing now for many, many years. Y’all have been a blessing to our Orthodox clergy in everything that you do. Please carry that back to the other folks at Danielsen, how grateful we all are for the great stewardship of the work that y’all have done.

Dr. Stavros: I will. Our team will be so happy to hear that, Bill. So happy. So I’m going to do two things. One is triple down on: Love and pray for your clergy and clergy families. That’s worth saying three times at least. The other thing is related to one of the most consistent and troubling findings from the research, and that is that—I think this is probably true across jurisdictions—that the structure of most parishes can leave clergy and their families pretty unprotected from those times when certain parishioners and parish dynamics become bullying and coercive.

Mr. Marianes: Yes.

Dr. Stavros: And I would say to anybody who’s listening, who’s active and really cares about the clergy, clergy families, and parish: Don’t tolerate it when you see it; don’t be a bystander. Intervene and create cultures of goodness. And not to protect clergy from feedback and criticism—that’s inevitable—but bullying is alive and problematic in parishes. Don’t tolerate it.

Mr. Marianes: Right. And the sister to that is also having their back. So not only the affirmative preventing of bullying, interceding and cutting it off at the pass, but when there’s a by-product of that, when there’s an inaccurate criticism that’s leveled, is: have their backs. Show them that you are there to support them. You can have your private conversations one-on-one where you say, “Maybe you can think about doing something differently,” but in the moment and particularly in the public moment, there’s no more important signal that you can send is that you have the backs of your clergy and the families in that regard, and that you respect them for the role.

And, I mean, I’m not trying to get theological here because all three of you have far greater theological training than this simple country lawyer! But in a very real sense, our clergy represent apostolic succession: they are the successors to Christ’s chosen apostles, and their families are their chosen loved ones that support them just like the Panagia supported her Son, and others. So I think if we’re going to honor the role that Christ has chosen for them, that the Lord has chosen by calling them to this ministry, then it’s about time that we start acting that way, and that we protect them, and that we have their backs and that we support them, not only financially and spiritually and prayerfully and in just about every way that’s possible. Y’all can fuss if you want to, if there’s some reason to fuss at them, but at the end of the day you need to do that.

And if I can throw in a little plea. She actually let this one out of the bag, Pres. Nicole, so I’m not speaking out of school, but when I did the interview of Presv. Dianthe, and she talked of the over-a-decade period when she conscripted, God rest his soul, Fr. George Livanos to a vegetarian lifestyle, and she discovered that he was sneaking cheeseburgers on the side, I had to confess that I was one of the suppliers and co-conspirators in a cheeseburger exercise. So I’m not suggesting that we do these things to disrupt the family marital state here, but part of having your clergy’s back is to be ready to have a cheeseburger and beer when they need it. I’m just saying.

Presv. Nicole: [Laughter] Absolutely! Nothing wrong with that once in a while.

Mr. Marianes: That’s it. There you go. Well, listen, that’s beyond all the time we have right now, so let me wrap it up with a few final thoughts. First, an extraordinary special thanks to my wonderful guests and the incredible work they’re doing: Dr. George Koulianos, Dr. George Stavros, Presvytera Nicole Keares. For everybody and all the work you’re doing: for the enthusiasm, the amazing research, and the hard dedication that you’ve demonstrated in doing this. We cannot thank you enough, and God bless you for sharing this story and for being willing to be evangelists of the calling of the clergy.

As always, I need to give a big shout-out of thanks to another spouse of a clergy, Matushki Trudi Richter, who’s my show producer in Chesterton, Indiana, that made all of this possible; and the rest of the great team at Ancient Faith Radio. If you find any of these Stewardship Calling first-Wednesday or fifth-Sunday programs helpful or informative, just tell your friends to tune in and listen. They are also archived as a podcast version, so this has been recorded and we will be releasing it as a podcast version in the next day or two, and you can always find them by going to my website, StewardshipCalling.com, on the internet radio tab, and then scrolling down to the date. Today’s date is June 1, 2022. Or you can find them by going to Ancient Faith Radio and going to the Stewardship Calling pages, and again, scroll down to June 1, 2022.

I’m really excited about my next Stewardship Calling first-Wednesday program here on Ancient Faith Radio, and this is going to be a free-for-all, folks, so fasten your seatbelts. But on Wednesday, July 6, which is the first Wednesday of the month of July, I am so excited that the founder of Ancient Faith Radio, John Maddex, and I will actually be in New York City for the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese bi-annual Clergy-Laity Assembly, and we’re going to do a live show right from the Marriott Marquis in downtown Manhattan. So I’ve lined up a few friends and some great Orthodox Christians and clergy and ministry leaders, and even some hierarchs, to pop in and give their insights on a live program. But we’re also going to have an open microphone there, and I welcome anybody who happens to be at the Clergy-Laity, whether you’re a delegate or a visitor, to come and share your stories and the good news about living your calling. So this is going to be an amazing and fun opportunity for you the listeners to actually meet a diverse array of really, really incredible Orthodox Christians and clergy. So be tuned for that, for a live free-for-all on Wednesday, July 6, coming to you live from the Marriott Marquis in downtown Manhattan, New York.

Of course, I invite you to check out any of the other always-free resources at StewardshipCalling.com that cover a whole gamut of programs about effective churches and strategic planning and stewardship and servant leadership and many other things. If you have any questions or you want to do any follow-up, you can reach me at bill@stewardshipcalling.com and let me know what you’re thinking and if there’s anything I can do for you.

As always, I ask that you remember that two of the most important days of your life are, first, the day you were born, and, second, the day you figure out why. And if you’re not already living your stewardship calling, please begin by prayerfully beginning your “why” and stewardship calling, and then start living the most extraordinary second part of your life.

Thanks for listening. God bless you. As always, I pray that you SOTPAETJ, which stands for: Stay On The Path And Enjoy The Journey. God bless and good night!