Ms. Sarah Werner: Welcome back, everyone, to the Voices From St. Vladimir's Seminary podcast. Today we've got a real treat for you. I'm sitting here with Reader Anthony Davis. Many of you listening might also know him as Antwian. Reader Anthony is [an alumnus] of St. Vlad's. He graduated in 2019 with a master's of divinity degree. In 2021, he graced us again with his presence by becoming the bookstore manager for SVS Press here on campus. In 2023, he was tonsured a reader in the Church, and we're really glad to have you, Antwian! Mr. Antwian Davis: Thank you for having me. I'm excited to be here. Ms. Werner: Glad you're willing to be on the podcast. Anthony, to get us started off, I'd love to hear from an [alumnus], sort of your background to the Orthodox Church. How did you become Orthodox? Mr. Davis: Well, my journey started when I started becoming a minister. I was a minister in the Baptist Church, so I was working with some youth ministry, and my— But as I was getting more into ministry, I started thinking, "Well, people are going to start asking me questions, and I need to know answers." So I started digging deeper, like most people do on an internet search. I wanted to know things that were just simple, like where did the Bible come from, because it didn't fall from the sky, God didn't just lay it in somebody's hands or something like that. I started just doing my internet search, and I actually also had another minister friend of mine who was… He was at a seminary in St. Louis, and he had come across some Orthodox stuff, and then he gave me some Orthodox stuff to start reading. Actually, one of the books—it was really a small pamphlet—was Sola Scriptura by Fr. John Whiteford, and how that is not the right way. So I started reading that, and it just made a lot of sense to me. I was going down this path of: "Okay, this makes a whole lot of sense." Then the same friend, he was like: "Well, why don't you come to my church and visit," because he was now a pastor. And I was like: "Ah, I don't know. I don't know if I want to do that." One, it was kind of a distance from where I lived, but then when I went, he had actually implemented the Creed at his church. Now, thinking back, at a Baptist church, it's different, but I was like: "What is this?" And he was like: "Oh, this is the Nicene Creed." And he was telling me that there was some push-back from people at his church, and I was like: "Why? This is what every Christian should say, if you're a Christian, what you believe." And he was like: "Yeah, I know!" That kind of started my journey. And then I left St. Louis and moved to Texas, but there was a bookstore called Archangels Bookstore in St. Louis, run by— the name is Theodore. Drawing a blank on his last name right now, but he actually still orders from the Press. Anyway. So I talked to him a few times, and he was like: "Well, you can read all you want, but you're eventually going to have to go to a place." And he also gave me a warning. He was just like: "If you go to one place and you don't feel comfortable, don't let that be your only experience. Go to somewhere else till you actually feel comfortable." So I ended up going to St. Barbara's in Fort Worth, Texas, which ended up being the first, and I ended up feeling comfortable enough to keep going back. I didn't do kind of the church-hopping at first. I mean, I stayed at St. Barbara's, but then I'd kind of go with friends if they were visiting another church or something like that. So that was kind of my initial journey, but when I look back, I mean, I think it was really deeper than that, because I come from a family that, when I was a kid—and I even now tell my parents, "You actually raised me to be Orthodox, even though you weren't raising me to be Orthodox," because when I was a kid—and I was a very sick kid. It's actually a miracle that I'm actually sitting here, and I can expound on that in a little bit— Ms. Werner: Yeah, I don't think I know that part of your story, actually, so I'm curious. Mr. Davis: Yeah, I'll expound on that in a second. My parents would put oil in my head and make the sign of the cross, and they would pray over me. Ms. Werner: And they were part of the Baptist Church. Mr. Davis: And were part of the Baptist Church. Now, I would say, the Baptist Church, if you ever— It was more spiritual than it is now. It's kind of a dying church in a sense. So they come from that old spiritual background. So what I meant when I said I was a sickly kid… One day I just stopped breathing, and it happened to be a snowstorm in St. Louis, and the ambulance would not come and get me. So my parents had to put me in the car, and they tried to rush me as fast as they could to the hospital. The whole time I'm not breathing. My dad drops my mom off at the emergency room door; he goes to park. My mom takes me in. The nurse takes one look at me, and she rushes me to a room. But by the time my dad actually came into the room, I had already— I just woke up on my own, and I was playing like nothing ever happened. I was around two at this time, and so then they did all these tests on me, and they found out I was actually allergic to everything under the sun, had asthma really bad. I was probably one of— Like that movie, the Bubble Boy. I ended up being like a bubble boy in a way. They would put me in the hospital, put me into a room, pump mist into the room just so that I could breathe. They said I was never going to be able to go outside and play sports and things like that, but after some time I grew out of it. But I also will say that before that there was another episode that I had, where I was wheezing really bad because of my asthma, and my mom said, "Let's take him to the hospital," and my dad said, "No, tonight if he lives or dies, he's in God's hands." Ms. Werner: Whoa. Mr. Davis: Yeah. [Laughter] I get a little emotional when I talk about this, because it's just… That was a faith that, you know, we talk about in the Orthodox Church, but for them who weren't Orthodox to have that faith and to believe that at that time, it was amazing; it was a miracle. I'm just astounded that they would have that faith. I've even had to apologize to them at some point recently, just thinking— You know, when you become Orthodox, you want everybody to become Orthodox; you want everybody to… You know, when you first become Orthodox, you don't even really know what to say to people in the world anyway. Ms. Werner: [Laughter] Or you think you know what to say… It might not be what you should say! Mr. Davis: Exactly. I was, you know, trying to say, "You guys, this is the faith. This is the faith." But then I had to think about it. Well, they had faith; they have faith. And so, I mean, they're not Orthodox today, but I still believe that their belief in God was what God me here. So I think when I was really looking for the Church, I was actually looking for that faith that they had actually instilled in me when I was younger. So when I actually entered the Church, it just felt comfortable; it felt right. It just felt like home. I tell them now, "Yeah, we put oil on our head and make the sign of the cross. We pray these things." So I'm thankful for their faith at that time and their belief in God, and that's what instilled in me. I actually tease them. I say, "It's your fault that I'm Orthodox." [Laughter] Ms. Werner: Are they still Baptist? Mr. Davis: They're still Baptist. My dad, though, I mean, I always tell him he's more Orthodox than he thinks. His approach to Scripture is very Orthodox. He just… But, I mean, he's now seventy-...? Or actually tomorrow's his birthday, so I think he'll be 79. I think it's just they're at an age when change is— Well, for all of us, change is scary, but change is just— They're just not going to make that change, I don't think, at this moment. He also starts to tell me things like: "Oh, I see why your church does this. Oh, I see why your church is like that." I can appreciate that. One of the things he told me recently was like: In the Baptist church, you've got a piano, you've got an organ player, you've got tambourines. You can actually have a drummer, guitar, and all this stuff. He was like: "I didn't realize that's kind of a newer thing. Where you guys do it in the Orthodox Church was how music was actually done in the Church back then." So I was like: "Yeah." And that's kind of the stuff that I was trying to look for when I wanted to find the Church. Christ says, "Seek, and you shall find." So you have to actually search. I did think at one point, growing up, "Oh, Baptist is the way." I remember I had an old roommate who— He was— Because I was going to church, he started going to this Catholic church, and he started going through their—I forget what it's called, their RCIA program or their catechumenate program, and he was telling me how he couldn't take Communion until he actually finished this year program. I remember thinking, "Dude, just come to the Baptist church, and you can take it next time we have communion." But now I actually understand their— I don't know what their process is, but I definitely understand what they're getting at in trying to make sure you're vetted into your catechumenate, becoming Catholic for them, but for us Orthodox. So there should be a period of discernment. Ms. Werner: Yeah. I think that's the closed-communion practice. I think it's really hard for a lot of people coming from that kind of background. I know at least in my family, that's been kind of a struggle to understand and to accept: "No, you can't take Communion when you come visit our church." That's hard. Mr. Davis: It is. Ms. Werner: That's a really hard conversation to have with someone. Mr. Davis: Right. And my parents, because you have the bread and wine afterwards and they can receive that, for them that's communion. They're okay with that because, again, in the Baptist Church, that's kind of really all it is, a wafer and a little shot glass of grape juice, and that's your communion. So when they're actually able to still have a piece of bread and a sip of wine, they're like: "Oh, well, I did receive communion," although it's not what we would say is Communion, but for them, yeah. Ms. Werner: When I was becoming— Well, when I was on my way to becoming Orthodox, I was attending a different church, and it was an Anglican church. There was this moment at the end of a service one Sunday when I witnessed something that probably shouldn't have been happening, because I don't think the Anglican Church makes practice of this at all, but the assistant priest was dumping out the communion wine, and he was doing it outside; it was in the ground. I saw him dumping out the communion wine, the leftover communion wine. I was standing with a group of friends, and I was the only one who saw this. I turned to them, and I said, "What is he doing!?" And the all turned and looked and they saw it, and no one had a problem with it. I was the only one in the group that felt like: This is horribly wrong. I couldn't explain why it bothered me so much, and they couldn't understand why it was bothering me so much, but that was a huge shift in my spiritual journey toward Orthodoxy, of finally having some understanding of what we believe Communion is. And everything changed after that. That was my major pivot moment to becoming Orthodox. I'd been aware of the Orthodox Church and had attended pretty regularly for a while until that point, but it wasn't until right then that it was just like: Ohh… I get it. Suddenly I understand why the Orthodox Church does it this way and why we believe what we believe about the Eucharist. It took that experience to do it! [Laughter] Mr. Davis: I would say what my experience— I kind of gave a nutshell, overall experience, but— So I used to go to my brother's church, because when I first moved to Texas, I had my brother who's in Texas, and so I'd go to his church, which was a nine o'clock service. Usually they'd— It's a megachurch kind of thing, where they would be finished by ten or something. St. Barbara started at 9:30, so I would run out of there, because St. Barbara's was right around the corner, and I would run to St. Barbara's. But usually, right after service, because I had been to two church services, I didn't attend coffee hour. I was just leaving. And then—I can't think of his last name right now, but this guy, Randy, came out in the parking lot one day when I was leaving, and he just stopped me, to talk to me for a moment. I'm so thankful he did, because we talked, and then he was— I don't even remember what the conversation was, but he was like: "Ah, I'm going to back into coffee hour." I was like: "Well, I'll go grab a cup of coffee, too." So I went in and started meeting other people and then hearing their stories and their conversion stories. That's what kind of drew me, actually probably more so at first was the coffee hour, because I just wanted to hear other people's stories, so I was going. Then my priest, Fr. Basil, he would have his inquirer class, so I went to his inquirer class. One day he says, you know, at the beginning of the Liturgy, when he says, "Blessed is the kingdom," and when everybody's saying, "Amen," that's our—all of our—assent towards heaven. Fr. Schmemann mentions that in For the Life of the World; I didn't know it then: that's where he got it from. I was like: "Oh! I'm missing my Amen! I need to be here for my Amen!" Then I just stopped going to the Protestant church altogether and just started coming into the Orthodox Church. But then I still had quite a bit of a journey, because as I was learning and I realized: "Oh, I'm ready to do this!" I was, like I said, ordained into the Baptist Church. My brother's best friend, like a brother to me, in 2011, had gotten engaged, and he had asked me to do the wedding. But they weren't going to do the wedding, they weren't getting married, until 2013. I remember I went to my priest, and I'm talking to him about this, and he's like: "Well, they asked you for a reason. They probably don't want somebody else. Do the wedding, and then some time after the wedding, we'll find a time and we'll bring you into the Church." Out of all my years, 2013 was the only Pascha that I missed, but it was also— Holy Saturday is the day that I married them, and Pentecost of that year, 2013, was when I was received into the Church. Ms. Werner: You know that was the same year and the same time I was received into the Church. I think we've talked about that. Mr. Davis: I think we've talked about this before, yeah. Ms. Werner: So it's our eleven-year anniversary coming up here! Mr. Davis: [Laughter] Yeah! Ms. Werner: It's exciting. Mr. Davis: Yeah, and it goes fast. I didn't think eleven years ago—where did that go? Ms. Werner: Yeah, and you never thought you'd be working at St. Vladimir's, did you? Mr. Davis: No. Boy, even when I— I mean, at that time, I think— You know, I had heard of St. Vladimir, but I'm in Texas and this is New York. I wasn't even thinking too much about seminary other than the fact that, like I said, I had been ordained into the Baptist Church, but I didn't have to go to seminary for that. You just study the Bible and they ask you a bunch of questions, you answer the questions and they're like: "Yep, you're good." That's how I was ordained into the church. As I was thirsting for more, my priest, again, Fr. Zebrun, was like: You've… Maybe you should just think about seminary. He's like, whether you get ordained or not, don't worry about that. Just go to seminary and take your time and learn. So in 2016, that's when I decided I'm going to make the jump. Also, I was a teacher at the time, and I was getting burnt out from teaching. I joke, but in some ways it was kind of serious, too. I didn't want to be on the news, because the kids were— I was teaching in a low poverty, Title I school, and the kids were just rambunctious and so forth. Trying to corral this room full of 30 kids, hour after hour after hour—it was becoming a burden. But I don't also think that where I was supposed to be. I was doing it as a job, but that's not— I wasn't called to be a teacher—in that sense, I should say. So I decided: okay, yes, let me take this journey and see what this is going to do for me and what it's going to be like. I now think I probably came too soon, but— meaning when I came, I was still behind the curve. I didn't know a whole lot. Everybody when I got here was way more advanced in their studies than I was. But I also came just to learn— part of it, came to learn the services. I'll never forget it: Fr. Alex Rentel called me into his office one day my first semester, and he goes: "Next semester, you're going to be my assistant sacristan." And he was like: "I've noticed you even watch the way the candles move in the church," and I didn't even know he saw me! [Laughter] Again, some people don't know this about me, but I do come from a coaching background as well. I coached high school and some collegiate football. Movements, I just understand them. I was paying attention to the movements in the church, and he saw that I was paying attention to the movements in the church, and so he ended up making me the sacristan, assistant sacristan. Then the person who was ahead of me, he stepped down; then I became the sacristan in the middle of Lent! [Laughter] So I'm having to figure out all these services. But that was what I came here for, because that taught me how to act in the church, how to be in the church, how to move in the church. I was forced, in a good way, to just have to know the services. Then by also knowing the services, I was then able to pick up on the different things in class, because it all incorporates; nothing in the Church is separate. I was able to start picking up whatever we were talking about in liturgics, or whatever we were talking about in patristics. Also just hearing certain things, like I know all these coming from the Bible: this verse and that verse. It just forced me to learn in a different way, and I'm so grateful that I was able to do that for a year and a half as a sacristan here. It just taught me so much, and I'm thankful for that opportunity and thankful to Fr. Alex for noticing that. [Laughter] Like I said, I didn't even know that I was watching the movement! But that's just— I just do that. Ms. Werner: Yeah. You've nicely transitioned into seminary life and how you got here and how you discerned coming to seminary, which I think is helpful for some of our listeners to hear that process. So you graduated in 2019, and then you left, and you went back to Texas, right? Mr. Davis: Yes. Ms. Werner: Tell us a little bit about what you did after seminary and how you incorporated—? Mr. Davis: Well, before I do that, I will say I was here in seminary. We don't do it here now, but I had the opportunity to do CPE prison ministry. Ms. Werner: Oh! Okay. Mr. Davis: With Fr. Adrian. Ms. Werner: So that's slightly different than— I mean, we still do CPE at the seminary; it's required. But you had the prison ministry side. Mr. Davis: Right. So we— There's a prison not too far from here, so the way they did it, they broke it up into groups. We would go— I can't remember, once a week we would go over there and meet with prisoners and sit down with them and talk with them. It's weird, because then you actually— While they're in prison, you see they're actually a human; it's still a person. We got to hear some of their stories. Some of them, you know, unfortunate, made bad decisions and things or whatever decision that they made that led them there, but they were— These weren't necessarily horrible people. I got to do that and then experience how to write verbatims and things like that that are part of the CPE process. Then when I actually went in and did my CPE in Texas, as I was in school, it's just like: "Wow. I can do ministry and not be ordained," because I'm not married. So I started looking at ways to continue to do ministry. Again, like I said, CPE was a great thing. So then when I graduated in '19, I actually went back to Texas and then went to Baylor Hospital, and I worked as a residential chaplain for a year and a half or so, during the pandemic and all that, and that's when things changed. But CPE here taught me how to be a chaplain in the hospital. I'll never forget it, because a lot of times when I would leave a room, people would say, "What are you?" because in chaplaincy, when you go into a room, it's not about you; you're not talking about yourself. It's all about the person that's in the room. But when they ask you to pray for them, and then when you're listening to them, you do chime in and give a little bit of feedback on certain things. They just always say, "You're different." And they would say, "What are you?" And I would say, "Well…" I'd always try to dodge it and be like: "What do you mean?" They'd be like: "What's your belief? You're different." I'd say, "Why do you say that?" They'd say, "Well, pray for my sins? No one prays for sins any more. You: 'knowingly, unknowingly'? What is that? What do you mean by that?" So then I'd say, "Well, you know, some stuff we just do on purpose, and some stuff is just a habit and we don't even think about it and it just happens, and then when we have to go to confession and things like that, then you're like: Oh. Yeah. I did that, didn't I? Or I said that, didn't I?" It was a beautiful thing to be able to bring Orthodoxy into a world that doesn't actually experience Orthodoxy. The world is actually thirsting for Orthodoxy. I was the only chaplain at that time, residential chaplain at that time. I was actually doing two memorial services for people, because they liked the way I ministered to them, their family, and their time of death. I'll never forget one—I won't talk too much about it because of HIPAA rules and stuff, but a guy died of liver failure. Family was from out of town, and I had spent— As a matter of fact, this day alone, I had six deaths this day that I was dealing with. Ms. Werner: Wow. Gosh, that's rough. Mr. Davis: So I'm ministering to this woman who— she's now lost her son. A week prior she had just lost her husband of 50-something years. My pager's going off, but I keep shutting it off so that I could be present with her. But when I got to the memorial service, the guy was a big-time Mardi Gras person. So when I get to the memorial service, it was a Mardi Gras theme, and I was like: "Oh! Are we really doing this?" [Laughter] So there was a portion or a part in the service where I actually had to give some remarks. Everybody told me just keep it light and so forth, and I did, but I also said, "Well, Mardi Gras has always been tied to the Church. It's your last hurrah before Ash Wednesday." After the service, his sister came up to me and was just: "Thank you for saying that." She was appreciative that I brought church into— Ms. Werner: You made the connection. Mr. Davis: Made the connection that it was not just— Again, it was supposed to be light, but we've still got to bring God. I could not, within my own self, hold this service and not make mention of it. Again, this is what I mean. The people are thirsty. People are wanting God, and they just don't even know—some don't even know where to look. Ms. Werner: Sometimes it takes those moments of suffering and grief to get you to that point, to make you realize that's what you're looking for, and that's the comfort that you're seeking. Mr. Davis: Right. And so she was, again— And the mom, they're both very grateful. I was glad that I didn't hold back in that situation. But as I tell the students here that are doing CPE now: Don't be afraid to bring yourself, to bring your faith. I know CPE— Again, you're not there to convert people, but you're also not there to stifle yourself; you're not there to stifle your faith. You have to bring it to the forefront. And I said people will be appreciative if you do. You always have some patient or another that, for some reason or another, don't—they might not even want to hear anything that you have to say. But it's usually something that's going on with them; it's not you. So it's like, don't take it personal; it's not you. But, yeah, I just tell them: Bring yourself; bring the faith into the room, and don't be afraid, because they're actually going to appreciate it more than they knew, because they didn't even know what they were going to hear when you came in the room. Ms. Werner: I think that's really good advice for people who aren't chaplains and Orthodox Christians who are just sitting with their friends in grief. It's the same action. There's actually a really great song that a friend of mine wrote about grief. She refers to it as a house on fire, and in the song she talks about going to her friends or having her friends come and sit with her in the fire. I think the lyric is something like "Welcome to my fire" or something like that. [Laughter] But that's exactly what you're talking about. While that's important in the chaplaincy role, it's important for all of us as Christians to recognize, that just bringing our faith to those situations helps point people to Christ in a small way. Mr. Davis: Well, I think CPE… I mean, it is— Or chaplaincy… But it's part of— It is part of the Church. It's also a good model for the Church or of the Church, because we actually are called to listen and not actually try to give all the answers. A lot of times, I mean, you and I have given people advice. They don't take it! [Laughter] But if we actually just listen to what they're actually saying, they can actually come to their own solutions by us just listening and maybe chiming in a little bit. But to try to tell people what to do, that's not our call. Good and upright is the Lord; therefore he will teach sinners in the way. Our job is to listen, chime in when we can, and then let the Lord do his work. Ms. Werner: It's a good word. So I'm finding it interesting— I don't think I really knew about your childhood, bubble boy situation. Maybe you've mentioned parts of that in the past, but it's really interesting to me that you had that experience as a kid—spent a lot of time in hospitals—and now, well, I guess you got to the place where you had a reversed role. You went from being the sick kid to then being the one helping the sick and suffering. I think it's really— I mean, that's a huge testament to God's work in your life. And even with your coaching, you said before that one of the things you were told as a kid is that you weren't going to be able to play sports. Turns out, quite the opposite: you went to coaching sports in high school and college level. That's incredible. Mr. Davis: And never— When I started playing sports and until this day, I've never used an inhaler in my life. Ms. Werner: Wow! Mr. Davis: Another funny story about that is when I was a kid, I used to have to take this—I can still see the bottle. It was this nasty, gross, pink medicine that I used to have to take a couple times a day. But my mom told me several years ago she would always say: When I would tell you it was time to take your medicine, and if I didn't say I didn't need it, I would take it, and it would stay down. And then when she told me, "It's time to take your medicine," if I told her, "I don't need it," and she still forced me to take it, I would throw it up every time. Ms. Werner: Interesting. Mr. Davis: So then one time she finally started listening to me, and she was like: "It's time to take your medicine." I was like: "I don't need it." And then, for years, that medicine sat in our refrigerator—because you had to keep in the refrigerator. It sat in the refrigerator for years, and then… This was probably around the age of eight, seven—around six to eight, somewhere in that timeframe. I just stopped taking it. Since then, like I said, I stopped taking that medication, I stopped taking or I never used an inhaler—played basketball, football, track—ran track—baseball. I mean, any sport you can— I mean, I didn't play tennis or anything. With friends, but, like not— Like I said, God has brought me from that boy to this man, but I tell people when I do tell the story, it's God's story; it's not my story—because there's nothing that I did in the story; it was all him. I actually have gotten to the point where I have to stop hoarding this story, because it needs to be told, it needs to be said that— so people can still see that God is still real; miracles still happen. Yeah, I think that's another reason I'm kind of thankful today for this, because it's an opportunity to get the story out in a wider audience, and again, just to kind of give God the glory for this story, not take it for myself and keep hoarding it, because it's also— One, you don't want to bring up, you know, the story. And it's also kind of uncomfortable, because in some ways it can seem unbelievable. "Oh, you stopped breathing, and the worst snowstorm on St. Louis?" Just these things, and it's like: Well, yeah. I don't remember it, but my parents are still alive, and they can attest to the story. I'm just thankful for them, like I said, and their faith, and just God for raising me to this point. Ms. Werner: It kind of reminds me of one of my favorite things in Scripture, is the stories of Christ's miracles. He always tells the person, "Don't tell anyone." [Laughter] And no one listens! There's not a single person who was healed in Scripture that holds it in! Nobody ever listens to him, and that always makes me laugh when I read that in my personal reading of Scripture. It just always makes me smile. Nobody ever listens! [Laughter] Mr. Davis: But how can you? You've actually encountered Christ. You actually encountered God himself, so he's— You can't hold that in. Again, it wasn't that I was— I have told people, but never in this capacity where it's going to be broadcast. It's always been more of a one-on-one kind of story. I'll be interested to see or hear what kind of feedback comes from this. Yeah, it's just— I can't hold it in. I can't hold it as my story, because, again, I didn't do anything in it; God did it. But again, I'm just so thankful. It's kind of scary, but for my dad to just say, "No, tonight if he lives or dies, he's in God's hands." That's the faith I'm hoping for. That's the faith that I was searching for when I became Orthodox, like: where is this in the world? It's a broken and fallen world, as we all know. But for him to make that claim… I'm grateful. Ms. Werner: Yeah. Glory to God. Thanks for sharing. Mr. Davis: Thank you for, again, having me here. Ms. Werner: Yeah. So, switching gears just a little bit, after your chaplaincy, you came back to St. Vladimir's. Mr. Davis: [Laughter] I did. Ms. Werner: And you've been here since 2021. Mr. Davis: I have. Ms. Werner: And you've been running the SVS Press Bookstore and doing a fantastic job doing that. We'll talk about books at the very end, so we'll skip— I'm going to ask you all kinds of things about your favorite books and all that. I'm sad to announce this, because we haven't really announced it, but you are moving on from the bookstore here in a couple of weeks, to take on— Mr. Davis: I am transitioning. Ms. Werner: Yeah, you're going to transition to a new role, which, while I'm personally sad to see you go and the seminary's really… You're leaving a big hole, and we're going to miss you a lot. But—we're really excited about your new opportunity! [Laughter] So I wanted to give you a chance to talk about what you're going to be doing. And it's exciting! Mr. Davis: Actually, it's bittersweet, as you just said. I'm going to take a job with Fr. Paul Abernathy in the Neighborhood Resilience Project. It was— Again, I believe this was just God working, because I didn't try to make this happen. I didn't apply for this job. At the beginning of April—I think it was April—he came and did a talk on campus. The next day, we went to lunch, because we have known each other for several years. I think within the last, it seems like year, year and a half or so, our paths have crossed more. So we got to know each other a little bit more and a little bit better. This thought came into my head: "You've only seen St. Barbara and St. Vladimir's Holy Week and Pascha." I had never experienced anything outside of that. But then I kind of hesitated, because I was like: "Well, I don't want to impose myself on these people." But then it was just like: No, you've got to do it, so I was like: "Hey, I'm off from Holy Thursday to Bright Monday. Why don't I come and serve with you?" And he was like: "Oh! We would love that!" So I was like: "Okay." As time started getting closer, I just started feeling like I needed to be there Holy Thursday morning, and not driving over on Thursday. I look on his website, I'm trying to find out when they're going to start the Vesperal Liturgy, and they only had it up to Holy Wednesday on their website at that time. It was like a week before, so I text Father, and I was like: "Are you doing the Vesperal Liturgy?" [Laughter] Like: "What's happening?" He's like: "Yeah, we're doing it at nine, but get here when you can." Okay, nine o'clock. How am I going to make this happen? Because I'm working Wednesday, so am I going to drive over Wednesday after work? Am I just going to take a nap, wake up at two o'clock in the morning and drive over? How am I going to do this? There was actually another young lady on campus. I had run into her, and I was telling her that I was going over there. She was like: "Well, you know, that's kind of a long drive." She was just like: "Why don't you take a half-day on Wednesday and go over?" I was like: "Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. Why am I trying to kill myself?" Plus, I had never seen the unction service, because they do the unction service on Wednesday night. So I decided to do that. I text Fr. Paul, say, "Hey"—even gave him a joke: "Actually, I'm going to come over on Wednesday. Like Motel 6, leave the light on for me." [Laughter] He was like: "Okay, great." So I get there, see the unction service, but then later he tells me, "Oh, Bishop Thomas is going to be here tomorrow and serving with us." I was like: "Oh! Okay, fine. That's great." So I go Thursday morning; it's just me, Fr. Paul, his deacon— Well, his deacon actually brought the bishop, and then he has a second priest from Nigeria. We're all just there, and we greet the bishop. Fr. Paul says, you know, "Bishop Thomas, this is Anthony." We had crossed paths before, but he was like: "This is Reader Anthony from St. Vladimir's. He manages the bookstore." I rush off, use the bathroom, and I don't hear Bishop Thomas say, but he says to Fr. Paul, "Why isn't he working here with you?" But I hear Fr. Paul say, "Well, Bishop, he's the bookstore manager at St. Vladimir's Bookstore!" So I come out of the bathroom, still not thinking anything, and then Bishop Thomas is still in the middle of his entrance prayers, and he looks over at me, and he says, "Fr. Paul's going to give you an offer that you can't refuse." [Laughter] And then he goes back to his entrance prayers. Then later me and Fr. Paul, he looked at me and said, "Are you interested?" I was like: "I'd love to work here, but, you know…" I didn't know if there was any positions or anything that was available. I wasn't looking. He was like: "Okay." So he just started— I guess his mind started thinking, and then the first— On Friday, the next day, he actually had me meet with some people from the organization, Neighborhood Resilience. I sat down, just talked with him, just kind of gave him a little bit about who I am. Then he had come up with the position. It was going to be more of a community liaison kind of thing, but it didn't really feel like the right fit. I mean, I could have done it, but it didn't actually feel like the right fit, plus I don't think the money was also right. I was like— After Pascha morning when I was leaving him, because I was actually going to go see another friend in Pittsburgh, and I said, "Hey, let's just take Bright Week off. I've got to get back. I've got work I need to worry about." I said, "You've got work stuff and maybe you'll give me some time to come up with something." I said, "We'll reconvene after Bright Week." Bright Tuesday, he calls me, and he says, "Okay, I've got to get these people off my back. They keep hounding me: Call him, call him, call him, because we've got this new position." So he offered me the director of trauma response, so I'm going to get back more into the chaplaincy work. I'll be going— And what that is is when any time in a neighborhood within the surrounding area, if there's any kind of trauma type experience that can be identified, we will send a team—myself and some others—who will go into the neighborhood and just be there. If people want to talk—obviously, we can't force people to talk, but give people an opportunity to have an outlet. Because in Pittsburgh and in the Hill District, there is gun violence. Whether somebody dies or not, there's still trauma behind that. To be able to provide an outlet and an opportunity for people to, again, just express their feelings about what's going on, and you may even end up hearing more than just what that event happened was… I'm excited to get back into that chaplaincy kind of role. Again, it is bittersweet, because I do— This has been my home, not straight, but for six and a half years now. Ms. Werner: A long time. Mr. Davis: But it's been a safe haven for me to actually grow, because when I came back… Like I said, when I came here, I felt like it was a little early, but now, being here for three years, three and a half years, I've actually been able to hone my Orthodoxy, because in the bookstore we get things: complaints, questions, whatever. But every day when I— I've got to think about: How does the Church see this? How would the Church handle this? And not— Because some of the people, they email you with a complaint, but then they want a dignified answer, but they haven't come to you in a dignified way. [Laughter] So it's like: You want me to be dignified, but you're not being dignified. Okay, how would the Church handle this? Again, it just honed me to the point where I feel comfortable now to even be back in this role of chaplaincy, because also this is— Neighborhood Resilience is an Orthodox non-profit, so I would actually be able to do my chaplaincy work, my ministry work, in an Orthodox way versus where in the hospital you curb it but you still— It's weird, because you bring it, but you have to curb it, too. Ms. Werner: Yeah, they've got all those restrictions and everything. That's a challenge. I'm curious. You have all this experience and you're about to have more experience, sort of on the ground as an Orthodox Christian working with non-Orthodox, in really intimate ways. I'm curious to know in that experience, what do you think is really the greatest challenge that the Church is going to have to meet in the next five to ten years as it continues to grow, since the Church is growing? What is the greatest challenge for the Orthodox Church in this country? Mr. Davis: Again, I think one of our challenges is—and we have been, for a long time—we're just bad at evangelism. One of the things that I heard when I first came into the Church is: "Oh, Orthodoxy is America's best-kept secret." Well, that's not a badge of honor. We shouldn't even say it. We need to have… Well, again, what the challenge is with that is we don't have— We have to meet people where they are, and so we can't just have this umbrella of some kind of evangelism process, because, again, just as I was talking about with CPE, it's about listening. If you try to come in and just tell people what the Orthodox Church is, what they need is—you're not listening to what they're saying. So we need to be listening to the people first so that we can now say, "Okay, this is how we can respond." Again, it's hard, because, you know, everybody comes from a different background; everybody comes from a different place. For us to meet them there, we just have to stop and listen, but, again, it's hard when, because of the internet now, there's so much information out there, whether it's— So now we actually have to filter the information, because some of the information that's floating out there is not Orthodox. I mean, it's trying to— People are trying to claim it as Orthodox, but it's not Orthodox. We have to be able to filter that information, so that when people come into the Church or start inquiring about the Church and they start asking you about these things, you have to be able to discern and let them know: "Well, that's not really what the Church believes. That's not really what the Church teaches." We have now, because of social media and things, everybody is "a teacher." Ms. Werner: Yep. Everybody's an expert. Mr. Davis: Right, but the scary thing is— James talks about that: Teachers, you're going to be judged harder, so be careful about trying to be out there teaching if you aren't called to be that teacher, because if you steer people down the wrong path, there are going to be consequences. Whether they're going to be immediate or maybe at judgment, there will be consequences. We just need to be… The challenge is filtering all this information that's available, because, as we know and kind of as I got my start ten, eleven years ago was through the internet, and so now a lot of people, that's how they are finding the Church, is through the internet. Again, we need to be thankful for everybody that comes through the door, but then we also have to make sure we're catechizing them in the right way as well. Ms. Werner: Yeah. That's… The internet Orthodoxy issue— [Laughter] I don't mind calling it an issue because there's really good sides to it. Mr. Davis: Exactly! Ms. Werner: There are some people who are doing just an excellent job, but there is a problem of what you just described, of now everybody is… Everybody thinks that they are the authoritative voice on what the Church teaches, and some of them are on point, some of them aren't! [Laughter] I think that's one thing I've been really excited about that the seminary has done this last year is launching its online school of theology. It's a non-degree, non-certificate; it's just anybody can take it. It's kind of what I like to call internet Orthodoxy but with some authority, which is really great. I would encourage people to take advantage of that program, because it's really spectacular, taught by seminary faculty. Mr. Davis: Yeah, but that's, again, what I'm talking about in terms of: this is a vetted place. So we can trust what comes from this information. But when you just have anybody just jumping on the internet, and especially when you're a convert and you haven't been in the Church maybe two months, but now you're an expert on Orthodoxy, we've got to really stop and think about that, because it's not all about reading. I mean, it's about experience as well. We can't separate the two. But I think, again, it's one of those things where, as I talked about at the beginning, you become Orthodox, you find this new-found faith—well, really old, but it's new to you—and now you want to tell everybody about it. But you might not be in the right place yet to tell everybody about it. Ms. Werner: Right. Well, let's talk a little bit about reading! [Laughter] You and I are both nerds; we love to read. We both work for the Press currently. You'll still be working for the Press even though you're moving on. Mr. Davis: Yeah, I'll pub the Press, always. [Laughter] Ms. Werner: I ask everybody that comes on the podcast at the very end: Tell me what SVS Press books—you know, you can talk about others, too, but specifically what Press books have been sort of the guides for you in your spiritual journey, whether when you were becoming Orthodox or even just now as an Orthodox Christian? Mr. Davis: Wow. Well, one, obviously, staple: For the Life of the World. When I started reading that, Schmemann just opened my eyes about the sacraments in a way that I hadn't ever thought about before or experienced before. I just think that one— Again, if you're an Orthodox Christian and you haven't read that book, you should read that book. Right now, we're out of stock, and so it's being reprinted, but if you order it from us, you can put it on back-order. [Laughter] Also, again, another staple is On the Incarnation. Again, I think every Christian—Orthodox or not, but every Christian should read that book. The one that I'm probably most excited about at the moment—and I've only read one story in it so far, but it's Behold the Thief. Ms. Werner: Yeah, we just published that. Mr. Davis: So I've only gotten the chance to read one little bit of it, but it was interesting, because the thief is on the cross, he dies, his soul is on the way, he gets to go into heaven, and he sees these cherubim and seraphim, and they're like: "You don't belong here! You need to go in the other direction," or somehow it's stated. And he hands them this letter that Christ had given him, and they were like: "Oh my God! How did you get this? This is from Christ himself! This is his handwriting!" kind of stuff. I don't know, it was just the way that it was written, it just opened my eyes to the idea of: Yeah, we're always striving, even at the last minute, to get in. We're never sure. We've always got to keep striving to make that last "Lord, remember me in thy kingdom." So that's the newest one that I'm… I'm trying to think of some others. I mean, right now, that's the ones I can think of. I'm sure there's— Ms. Werner: [Laughter] Well, there's always more. Mr. Davis: There's always more! But when you're on the spot and you have to think about things, it's tougher. I can't not not pub the Popular Patristics series in itself, because I really think at the beginning of C.S. Lewis— in the beginning of On the Incarnation, when he breaks it down and just says we need to be reading first-hand material, we really need to be reading first-hand material. Ms. Werner: Yeah. The great part about that series is— obviously, we're both a little biased because we work for the Press, but the great thing about that series is that I think some people, particularly people coming into the Church and even cradle Orthodox, get a little intimidated by patristic literature, and they don't necessarily know where to start. I think that series, those translations are so great for anyone. Mr. Davis: Exactly. Ms. Werner: It's good for academic purposes because we have the critical text that goes along with the translations, but they're accessible translations to just the general lay person. The Incarnation in particular, I didn't read that until later in my life, once I became Orthodox; I read it a couple years ago. I just had no idea that it would be— I mean, it's incredible text, but it's easy to understand; it's readable. The introduction by C.S. Lewis is pretty phenomenal. Mr. Davis: Yeah, so just going back to the minister friend I was talking about at the beginning, he somewhere online had— It wasn't our version, but it was some text, so I actually read it. When I said he had given me some things to read, that was another thing that he had given me, and it was just a bunch of something he had printed off the internet. It was stapled in the corner. But that was one of the first books I read before becoming Orthodox which also was very informative for me to become Orthodox. That and, like I said, the Sola Scriptura by Fr. Whiteford. But, yeah, it is a staple just to understand how and why Christ is and why he came. Yeah, I just could probably break the book down if I had it in front of me. But, yeah, again, as you said, it's a readable text. It's first-hand, but it is a valuable text. Again, all of them are. When I came here, I had to— Because you had to take patristics, you had to read things. I studied with patristics under Behr. To be able to have those, understand the three Treatises, On the Cosmic Mystery, things we had by St. Maximus, which I have to say, I had to read multiple times. Maximus I have to chunk, because I can't— [Laughter] Ms. Werner: Everybody says that about St. Maximus the Confessor! It's like: you've got to take him in bits! Mr. Davis: You've got to take him in chunks because he's so dense, and he gets a lot. It's like: "Wait. Let me go back. What did that say again?" Ms. Werner: I'll tell you, though, St. Maximus the Confessor is quickly rising on the charts for us as far as sales go, particularly the book On the Cosmic Mystery of Christ by St. Maximus the Confessor. That book is rising in our best-seller list, pretty rapidly, actually. Mr. Davis: Recently he's gaining more attraction for some reason, even in the world outside of Orthodoxy. Ms. Werner: Yeah. Mr. Davis: I just came back from the NAPS conference, the patristics conference in Chicago. People there are talking about St. Maximus, and a lot of those people aren't Orthodox. It's just great to hear that he, or just patristics in general are making a splash outside of Orthodoxy. Hopefully it will bring more people into Orthodoxy, but the fact that people are actually, again, reading first-hand material—and these are all scholars, but that people are reading first-hand material again is great. Ms. Werner: Yeah. For those of you listening who are St. Maximus fans, we do publish a number of things by him and about him. The Cosmic Mystery of Christ is a title, Two Hundred Chapters on Theology is another, and then we also have The Analogy of Love, which is by Fr. Demetrios Harper. Mr. Davis: Ecclesiastical Mystagogy. Ms. Werner: Oh! Yeah, I forgot that one: Ecclesiastical Mystagogy is another one. So we've got you covered as far as St. Maximus goes. Mr. Davis: Unfortunately, I haven't read that one yet, Mystagogy. Ms. Werner: I haven't either. Mr. Davis: Because when you're in the bookstore, you have so much to read, opportunities like this. And then, you know, as the manager, you're also looking at the new third-party books that other people are publishing, so I get them for the store, but then when I buy it, I always buy one for myself… Each one of my books probably has a bookmark somewhere halfway in between or a page folded or something, because it's like: Here comes another book! I've got to start this one. But I look at it as I'm building my library, and when I need them, I'll have them. If I need to reference them for something, they're there. Ms. Werner: Wow. Antwian, thank you so much for your time. Thanks for being on the podcast. Mr. Davis: Thank you. I've really enjoyed it. This is actually my first one that I've ever done. Ms. Werner: Well, this is my— I guess you're number five on the podcast so far. I'm still a newbie to this whole interview on the podcast thing, but so far it's going pretty well. We're going to miss you! Thank you so much for your— Mr. Davis: I'm going to miss you. I'm going to miss this place. Again, thank you for taking a chance on somebody who was unproven in the bookstore. I really did enjoy my time, because, again, it's been a place that has been a safe haven for me, but now it's time again to branch out. Ms. Werner: Well, we love you, and we're praying for you. We'll continue to pray for you, and may God bless you in your new ministry and new chapter in life. Mr. Davis: Thank you. I love you guys and miss you. Ms. Werner: All right. Mr. Davis: All right. Bye.