Fr. Stephen De Young: Verse four: “These are the two olive trees and the two lampstands, standing before the God of the earth.” So that’s picking up imagery from the Prophet Zechariah. The imagery is interesting, because they used olive oil in the lampstands. These are both presented as a source of life on the one hand, and then lampstands are associated as we said before, with worship, because there was a lampstand in the Temple and the tabernacle. That was the image of each of the seven churches back at the beginning of Revelation. One of these is directed sort of earthward, like the olive tree, and then the lampstands are directed, like worship, back towards God. So the idea here is that they’re two intermediaries. So they not only have this prophetic role but they have this priestly role.

Verse five: “And if anyone wants to harm them, fire proceeds from their mouth and devours their enemies. And if anyone wants to harm them, he must be killed in this manner.” [Laughter] They’re out there in the oppressive world, and the idea here is that they’re protected, that God is protecting them while they’re out there.

Verse six: “These have power to shut heaven so that no rain falls in the days of their prophecy.” We’ll pause there. Who’s that?

Q1: Elijah.

Fr. Stephen: That’s Elijah, right, so that’s clearly invoking Elijah again.

“And they have power over waters, to turn them to blood, and to strike the earth with all plagues as often as they desire.” Now that’s Moses. That’s more Moses. So they’re clearly being presented here as being prophets and priests. They’re calling people to repentance, but they’re also potentially able to facilitate that repentance, because that’s part of what the priest would be doing, would be interceding for the repentant person before God.

Verse seven: “When they finish their testimony, the beast that ascends out of the bottomless pit will make war against them, overcome them, and kill them.” [Laughter] We already read about the beast. We’ve seen him. But so when they finish their testimony— So this is at the end of that three-and-a-half years. They’re protected for a time, and then the beast comes and kills them.

Verse eight: “And their dead bodies will lie in the street of the great city which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.” Now these are three very different places! So there’s Sodom, which was down by where the Dead Sea is now; Egypt, obviously, is Egypt; and Christ was crucified not actually in a city: he was crucified outside the city walls, outside of Jerusalem.

Now, he tipped us off by saying “spiritually.” And so their death is connected to the death of Jesus, and it’s also connected to these two places which are sort of emblematic.  Obviously, Sodom is emblematic of a city of sin and wickedness, but Egypt also, because Egypt is where they were slaves, from which they were delivered. And so when it says that “their dead bodies lie in the street,” we have to remember the ancient world—that’s the most accursed way you could die, was to have your body just left, not receive a burial. It’s not just talking about the fact that they’re killed at this point, but that they’re killed in this sort of accursed way. This is another thing that connects it to Christ’s death, because, remember, Christ’s death is not just— He died but it was death on a cross. Old Testament says, “Cursed is anything that hangs on a tree.” So it’s this idea that it’s this humiliating, horrible death from our perspective.

Verse nine: “Then those from the peoples, tribes, tongues, and nations”—which is better than just saying “Gentiles”—“will see their dead bodies three and a half days.” So we have another half a seven.

And not allow their dead bodies to be put into graves. And those who dwell on the earth will rejoice over them, make merry, and send gifts to one another, because these two prophets tormented those who dwell on the earth.

So the response— God sends these two prophets and priests out to call people to repentance. The response is not repentance; the response is hatred of them, hatred so severe that when they die, they not only refuse to let them be buried, but they start a new holiday for the day the two witnesses died, and give gifts and throw parties. This is not the origin of Christmas as a pagan holiday. [Laughter]

Verse eleven: “Now after three-and-a-half days, the breath of life from God entered them, and they stood on their feet, and great fear fell on those who saw them.” So again, here’s another parallel, just as their was this parallel between their death and Christ’s death, there’s now this resurrection parallel.

Verse twelve:

And they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them: Come up here. And they ascended to heaven in a cloud, and their enemies saw them. In the same hour, there was a great earthquake, and a tenth of the city fell. In the earthquake, 7,000 people were killed, and the rest were afraid and gave glory to the God of heaven. The second woe is past. Behold, the third woe is coming quickly.

Remember we had that announcement from the angel: there were the first four trumpets, and the angel came and said, “You think that was bad! Woe to the people who have the next three trumpets.” So that’s the end of the sixth trumpet, which is the second woe—five and six being the first two woes—so now we’re going to have the seventh trumpet and the third woe.

So what’s going on with these witnesses? Whom do they represent? Well, I would argue that, if we approach it with “Well, these are two people, and we can figure out who these two people are,” we’re kind of barking up the wrong tree, because, while St. John alludes to this Enoch and Elijah traditions, he evokes kind of Moses and Elijah, he doesn’t name them, which he very much could have if his intent was to indicate two particular people.

Why would there be two, if he’s not talking about two particular people? Well, they’re particularly described as two witnesses. If you know the Torah, if you were going to establish the truth of something, you had to have two witnesses who gave the exact same testimony. That was the rule. And we see that play out in all kinds of places in Scripture. Since we just had this reference to Sodom, that’s why there’s two angels sent to Sodom: two witnesses to what’s happening there, to attest to the wickedness. So the number two is invoked here for that purpose. It’s part of their role. Both of them are able to give the testimony, the same testimony, to God: “Yes, we went out. We preached repentance. We were there to receive their repentance. They murdered us.” This is what happened. So that’s why the number two.

But whom is this referring to, then? Well, it’s referring to a whole lot of people. Originally, it’s referring to the apostles. What happened to the apostles?

Q1: They got killed.

Fr. Stephen: They all got killed. They went out and preached the Gospel, they preached repentance, they were murdered. Was that the end of their story?

Q1: No.

Fr. Stephen: No. They participated in what St. John later on is going to call the first resurrection, and were taken up where Christ is. Just as Christ ascended into heaven, they’re taken up where Christ is. But the original apostles were not the end of the martyrs. That’s continued all the way through to our present day.

Q1: Doesn’t “martyr” mean witness?

Fr. Stephen: Yes. That’s what the Greek word means. This is talking about “the martyrs” in general.

So what’s with this bit with fire coming out of their mouths? The martyrs don’t die because God failed to protect them, St. John is saying; the martyrs die because their ministry has reached its completion, and then they die, they experience the resurrection, and are taken into heaven, to await Christ’s second coming. For as long as they’re on their mission, God is protecting them, until that’s complete. St. Paul is a good example of this. Remember when we were reading through the book of Acts, St. Paul kept getting shipwrecked, whipped, beaten, thrown in prison, people trying to kill him, trying to stone him to death. All the way through, he’s sort of protected, but then when his ministry was finished, he was beheaded in Rome.

And so what’s with them starting a new holiday? Well, the people who originally received this from St. John and a lot of Christians all through history have all seen this happen. They’ve seen Christians be murdered for being Christians. They’ve seen Christians be killed for giving testimony to the truth. And afterwards the people who kill them usually gloat. “Finally we’re rid of them. Enough of that.” Mock them, laugh at them. But St. John’s saying that’s not the end of the story. That’s not the end of the story.

Q2: That sounds like the moral is never to stop working.

Fr. Stephen: Yeah. And why the Moses and Elijah and Enoch? Because it’s calling to mind, when you go out and you bear witness to Christ and you experience these sufferings and these hardships, you’re in continuity with Moses, Enoch, Elijah. Elijah faced a lot of hardships. He was on the run from the king and the queen who were trying to kill him. Moses kept having his own people try to kill him and go back to Egypt after he delivered them. So he’s saying these martyrs are not different from them. It’s not that they were these great heroes who did these incredible deeds and now, oh, these poor Christians are just getting murdered and killed. No, the same power of the Holy Spirit that was in them is now in these Christian martyrs who are giving testimony to the truth.

As usual, as we’ve seen with the book of Revelation, this isn’t just something in the future where two particular guys are going to show up, Enoch and Elijah in person or someone else, but this is something that has always been true. It speaks to the people of the time; it speaks to us today. We’ve been fortunate, in this country at least: we haven’t had to face people directly—most of us, at least—wanting to murder us for being Christians. That’s not true in a lot of places in the world today, and I would submit, as I usually do, that you may laugh at the idea that that could happen here any time in our lifetime, but they also would have laughed at you in Russia in 1914 if you’d suggested that.

So things can change, but that’s what St. John is getting at, because, again, it’s this other perspective. Because what you see on this earth is someone you love getting murdered for being a Christian and laughed at and mocked, and if you’re mired in what’s going on in this present world, it’s going to look an awful lot to you like “God didn’t take care of my loved one? What’s going on with this?” And so St. John is bringing this larger perspective in terms of what’s happening.

And so then what is— Going back to the beginning of the chapter, what is the overarching purpose of God allowing this affliction to happen to the Church? Of him allowing the courts to be trampled under by the nations? It’s so that there’s time for them to be called to repentance. He’s still allowing time. Remember we saw that image not that far back of the souls of the martyrs under the altar in heaven, crying out, “How long, O Lord, are you going to let this keep going?” And that’s the purpose: time for repentance. But, as we saw at the very end of that section, there’s a limit to that. There’s a point where that ends, and people suffer the consequences of their rejection of those opportunities to repent. Verse 15…

Q1: Wait a minute.

Fr. Stephen: Yes, sorry.

Q1: What about the earthquake in the center of the city?

Fr. Stephen: Yeah, those are the consequences.

Q1: Okay. A tenth doesn’t have any particular meaning?

Fr. Stephen: Oh, that’s a tithe.

Q1: Oh. Seven thousand people…

Fr. Stephen: Seven thousands, yeah.

Verse 15: “Then the seventh angel sounded”—the trumpet, and as we said, but it’s been a while, this is like a ram’s horn; this is like a shofar, not the long, thin trumpet we usually picture angels with. “And there were loud voices in heaven, saying: The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of his Christ, and he shall reign forever and ever.”

Q2: That sounds like [Inaudible]. [Laughter]

Fr. Stephen: Yes. Plagiarism!

“And the 24 elders who sat before God on their thrones fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying—” Well, I’ll pause before we get into what they said. This, then, is the seventh one. Now we’re bringing things to completion. We had those nations whom God was allowing to rage and do all these things, but now, at the end, all those kingdoms, all those nations, become part of Christ’s kingdom. So the authority that the rulers of those nations have is taken away from them. They’re done raging, they’re done attacking, they’re done persecuting, they’re done afflicting.

So the 24 elders whom we talked about before, they fell on their faces and worshiped God, saying, “We give you thanks, O Lord God Almighty, the One who is and who was and who is to come, because you have taken your great power and reigned.” Just a reminder, because it’s been a while—this has been repeated, but we tend to read “who is and who was and who is to come” as if that’s present, past, future, but “who is to come” is the verb, like to come, to approach. So it’s really: “the One who is and who was and who is coming.”

The phrase in English, “you have taken your great power and reigned,” is a little odd, but what it’s saying is God didn’t just suddenly power up or get more power. Instead, he’s now used his power to take back the authority over the nations to himself.

Verse 18: “The nations were angry, and your wrath has come, and the time of the dead they should be judged, and that you should reward your servants, the prophets and the saints, and those who fear your name, small and great, and should destroy those who destroy the earth.” This is a narration of what just happened in this chapter. The nations were angry; they were raging against the Church. But now the time of God’s wrath has come. What is God’s wrath? It’s not just that he’s really angry. That’s imagery, but God doesn’t get emotional, and that’s a good thing, because I’ve done plenty to make him angry. [Laughter]

But the idea of wrath here is— Remember, judgment— Justice is everything being in the right order and functioning together properly. Judgment is putting things back in order. Well, if you’re someone who is wicked who has prospered, as opposed to someone who’s your victim, whom you’ve oppressed, when that gets put right, if you were up here, that’s wrath; and if you were down here, that’s blessing. So the person who’s down here is looking forward to God’s judgment. That’s why you find in the psalms, “Arise, O God, and judge the earth.” People calling out, asking God to judge them, and you’re like: Why would you ask God to judge you? Well, if you’re down here, you’re asking to be lifted up; but if you’re up here and you get laid low, that’s wrath. So that’s what happens to the rulers of these nations. They’ve been high on the hog, persecuting the Church, and now they’re going to be laid low.

This is also the time of the dead, that they should be judged. So this is— Remember I was talking about how there’s these cycles. This sounds an awful lot like the end; that’s because it is. We’ve still got ten more chapters, because this isn’t a linear sequence. These are patterns. The dead are judged. His servants, the prophets and the saints—like the witnesses we just read about—receive their reward. “And those who fear your name, small and great.” And he’s going to “destroy those who destroy the earth.” Who’s that referring to? That’s not people who don’t recycle.

Q1: [Laughter] That’s the first thing I thought of.

Fr. Stephen: Yeah! [Laughter] Or who don’t clip their six-pack things; turtles get caught in it. That’s not what it’s talking about. You should clip your six-pack rings, by the way. I’m not saying don’t do that. But that’s not what it’s referring to. This is referring to the demonic powers, who are out to destroy God’s creation. They’re now going to be taken out of the picture is the idea there, and their run is over.

Verse 19: “Then the temple of God was opened in heaven, and the ark of his covenant was seen in his temple, and there were lightnings, noises, thunderings and earthquake, and great hail.” The hail is an interesting translation, because it’s not clear where that hail was: was it in the temple in heaven? But the idea is: this is sort of the loud noise at the end of everything. This is now the denouement, and now when we get to chapter twelve, we’re going to start over. A new cycle is going to start. We’re actually going to start hearing about Christ’s birth, so we’re backing way up, backing way up to the beginning.

What’s the significance here of the temple being opened up?

Q1: I notice the ark is back in it which it wasn’t in the past.

Fr. Stephen: Yeah, in heaven! That’s in heaven. So where have we been, meaning where has St. John been in terms of sort of spiritual geography in this vision we’ve had? It’s been a while, because he’s been seeing crazy things happen, but it’s been a while since he described where he was. But remember, he was by the altar in the temple in heaven; that’s where this worship is going on with the elders and everything. So which altar was that? Well, we saw angels coming and offering incense on it, remember, and one of them took a coal off into a censer. So that is, if we’re thinking about the tabernacle or the Temple, what we would call the holy place; that’s where the altar of incense was—not the holy of holies back behind the curtain, but the holy place. That’s where the priests went and did their sort of normal daily business in the Old Testament. And then the holy of holies, where the ark of the covenant was, you could only go back there once a year and you had to do the whole Day of Atonement ritual to try and do that safely; otherwise you experienced death by holiness, which nobody wanted. That’s why they developed the later tradition of tying a rope around the high priest: in case he dropped dead in there they could drag him out, because nobody else could go back in there to get him, back behind the curtain.

So St. John’s been in this outer portion, seeing all these things happen. It’s been portrayed as pretty big, given the number of people who are in it, because this temple is sort of co-extensive with the cosmos. When the Temple was built, and the tabernacle for that matter, the depictions were intended to make it sort of a microcosm of the world. What we would call the ceiling canvas was made to look like the sky, and in the Temple there were fruit trees and things on the side. It was supposed to invoke paradise, but it was also supposed to be like a microcosm of the creation, in which they would serve. So the heavenly temple sort of overlaps creation, so it’s sort of this huge holy place in which everyone has been gathered.

When it says that the temple was opened, it’s not that they were all standing outside and now the front doors were opened and they could look in; this is the holy place is now open so that everyone could see the ark of the covenant. That’s when there’s all the thunder and noise and all the other words they were struggling to translate of this big thunder and lightning and boom, because that distinction is now broken even in heaven, which means what? Which means God and his people are now dwelling together directly.

St. John doesn’t go into detail on it here. He’s going to go into more detail later on when we go through the last cycle and we get to chapter 21, and he’s describing the new heavens and the new earth. Like I said, every time he comes around in a spiral, he advances the ideas a little more, but the idea here is that there’s now no intermediary between God and his people, which is going to be a wonderful thing for his people; it’s not going to be a great thing for the wicked, because the wicked have been doing a lot better by having an intermediary between them and God’s holiness, because they experience the presence of God as suffering and wrath and— because they hate him. Whereas those who love him, as it says here, “all those who fear his name, his servants, the prophets, the saints,” for them God’s presence is warmth and love and light.

The way that the judgment— This is a portrayal of the last judgment, and the way St. John here at the end of this chapter portrays that last judgment is as the unmediated presence of God with man, and that reveals who everyone is. That includes the demons, as we saw. And then their experience of God is one way or another. He’s going to come back around to this and develop it more, like I said, but that’s his portrayal here at the end of this cycle.

When he talks about the ark of the covenant, again, if you were an Israelite and the ark of the covenant is brought out to lead you to victory in battle, it’s a great thing. If you’re one of the people who touched the ark and dropped dead, it’s a bad thing. It’s not great. [Laughter] So that’s why the ark in particular is evoked here, because the ark’s presence had a lot to do with that death by holiness or you have Uzzah [who] touches it and dies; you have David dancing before it as it’s brought into Jerusalem. The ark carries that.

Q1: Is this one of the sources for the Orthodox idea that we all go to the same place, the presence of God, in the afterlife, and that’s either good or bad depending on how you feel about it?

Fr. Stephen: Yeah. That’s developing this imagery. Yeah. And there’s a lot of— I mean, this isn’t just a new thing that St. John comes up with. He expresses it in a certain way, but a lot of the imagery in the Old Testament prophets is of God as a consuming fire. If precious metals are brought into the presence of incredibly hot fire, it purifies them. All the dross and garbage burns off; you’re just left with the pure precious metal. But if you bring just the rot and the— that’s just consumed. So that same kind of— There’s lots of different images that are used, but it’s that same idea. It’s the same idea.

Chapter twelve is a whole thing. [Laughter] There’s a lot in chapter twelve, and so— and because of how it’s structured, I don’t want to do part of it tonight and then part of it next week, so we will hold off on chapter twelve until next week if that’s okay with everybody. So, thank you, everybody.

Q1: Thank you very much.