Fr. Stephen De Young: Well…

Q1: It just stretches and grows, or am I thinking of this all wrong?

Fr. Stephen: You’re over-thinking the adversity, I think, but it is true that Adam and Eve, when they were put in the garden, weren’t told, “Enjoy!” [Laughter] They were given instructions, not just negative—“Hey, don’t eat this one tree”—but also: “Go out, fill the earth, subdue it.” There was stuff they were going to do.

Q1: Maybe “adversity” was a bad word, but a challenge to stretch us with.

Fr. Stephen: Well, God is infinite, and we’re finite, which means there’s an infinite distance between us and him. We’re not going to get to some point where: “Oh, yeah, I’ve got God figured out now.” [Laughter] So for eternity you can draw closer to God, come to a deeper understanding of God, the mysteries of— Just the mysteries of his creation are probably more than we’ll ever get, let alone him himself. So there’s this infinite— We tend to think of things in a very Platonic way. Plato was: Motion is imperfection. If something is perfect, it’s static. It’s just static and perfect. If something is moving or developing or changing, that means it’s imperfect and trying to get better. But that’s not how the Scriptures look at things. [Laughter] That God creates everything in motion, that he creates these animals and has them reproducing and they’re moving and they’re developing. He has plants growing. He gives Adam and Eve something to do; they’re not just to sit there and stare at God and contemplate all day.

Q2: So this actually gives some weight to something my mother said that used to just drive me crazy because I thought it was just so terrible, but she was very Presbyterian, and she said that she thought that in the next life God would be giving us useful work to do. And I thought, “Yeah, chores… Just what—” [Laughter]

Fr. Stephen: But, remember, the thorns and the thistles were the result of the fall. And getting your food by the sweat of your brow was after the fall. So the chores won’t be a chore is what I’m getting at. [Laughter]

Q1: And also, implicit in this being with God in eternal life, it also reinforces what Bishop Nicholas said about eating from the tree of the knowledge of good and evil and not allowing them to eat of the tree of life which is in itself a blessing, because it would be a continued trajectory into darkness. And God, by denying us access to the tree of life, cuts it short as a mercy, so that we don’t live forever in our sinful state.

Fr. Stephen: Right, yeah. But mortality is given to put that restriction on sin. Otherwise we’d be like demons.

Q1: Ever growing more and more… Can you imagine? Vlad the Impaler? [Laughter]

Fr. Stephen: Don’t say that around Romanians. They still like him. [Laughter]

Q3: You can get into a fist-fight in some parts of the world.

Fr. Stephen: But, yeah, we’d be like demons. The fact that we have mortal bodies is what, according to St. John of Damascus especially, opens up for us the possibility of repentance and change and transformation. So it is—

Q1: I bought some of his writings. I haven’t read it yet. Where is that? Is that in Exposition?

Fr. Stephen: That’s in his Precise Exposition of the Orthodox Faith. It’s actually when he’s talking about angels, because he’s talking about why demons and Satan don’t repent.

Q2: That’s interesting.

Fr. Stephen: Okay, so let’s get started a little bit here on chapter five. “Therefore, having been justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.” So whenever St. Paul says, “Therefore,” pay attention, because he’s summing up what he’s just been saying. So he says: Look, we’ve been put into this righteous category through our faithfulness; now here’s the results: We have peace with God, already, meaning we don’t have to wait until the last judgment and Christ’s return for that justification. We already have peace with God; we’re already in that state.

“—through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom also we have access by faith into this grace in which we stand.” We talked about how grace is what God is doing. Grace is the action of God. It’s God working in his creation. So again, even though he uses the verb “stand,” he’s using that to describe the place where we are. He’s not using that to describe a static state, because God’s grace is working by definition: it’s God working in his creation.

So that means we’re now participating in what God is doing in his creation already. His point here is to emphasize that “already.” We’re not just sitting around waiting, like: “Okay, well, I got baptized. Now I’ve just got to wait till I die and go to heaven.” [Laughter] “Try not to sin much… Try not to get into too much trouble while I’m waiting…” But there are things happening. We already have this peace with God. We’re already part of what he’s doing in the world, in transforming it and redeeming it. And then this is the— That’s the already part; this is the not-yet part: “And we rejoice in the hope of the glory of God.” We’ve now got that as our hope because of it. We know what’s going to happen. We can now look at Christ’s return with hope instead of dread.

Q2: The part that hasn’t come yet is the revelation of how glorious God really is.

Fr. Stephen: Right, the glory of God being revealed, yes, to humanity at Christ’s return, to everyone.

“And not only that, but we also glory in tribulations, knowing that tribulation produces perseverance; and perseverance, character; and character, hope. Now hope does not disappoint, because the love of God has been poured out in our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” So notice now we can rejoice in these troubles and tribulations. Why?

Q2: They’re going to build us and develop us.

Fr. Stephen: They are, but also what are they a sign of? They’re a sign that we are the righteous.

Q2: Ah.

Fr. Stephen: Because who are the righteous, remember? They are the people who are oppressed. They are the people God says over and over again in the Old Testament that he’s the God of orphans and widows and strangers and the powerless, which is completely bizarre for the ancient world.

Q2: Pretty bizarre now, too.

Fr. Stephen: The Romans found this laughable. You look at the gods, any of the pagan gods—Rome, Greece, before that—they’re gods of what? They’re storm-gods; they’re gods of strength, beauty, power. That’s what they’re worshiping. That’s who they want to— Why would you want to worship the god of, like, refuse? Why would—

Q2: The unwanted.

Fr. Stephen: Why would God identify himself with those people? What kind of God would that even be? So it’s not for no reason that when Christ is born, he’s not born in a palace somewhere, he’s not born to some wealthy family—he’s born to a couple of dirt-poor peasants who aren’t even at home, in an animal stable, because that’s always who God has identified with.

So now, instead of— Look at Job in the Old Testament. Job is suffering. Job’s going through tribulations, Exhibit A. And what do all of his friends come to him and say?

Q2: You must have done wrong?

Fr. Stephen: Yeah. “What did you do? What horrible sin did you commit that God’s punishing you like this? You must be really wicked, Job. You must be a real sinner; you’re in trouble.” That’s what it was taken to be a sign of. And the whole point is: No, Job’s the only righteous one in the whole story except God himself. [Laughter] And what happens to Christ when he comes? Hated, despised… These are the people— God comes and he comforts the oppressed. And so St. Paul could say, “Hey, look, now when we’re oppressed, what is that now? Now it’s a sign. It’s a sign to us of the truth of the fact that we’ve been justified, that we’ve been made righteous, because—”

Q2: So in my comfortable, middle-class life, I should be scared.

Fr. Stephen: Yes. Yes! That this is the sign that you’re one of the righteous is that now you’ve become afflicted. And so that’s why that ends up producing what? Hope. “Oh, this is true. That’s why— that I’m being afflicted.” This is why— Remember we saw in the book of Acts when the apostles were taken and beaten by the authorities: they rejoiced that they had been found worthy to suffer for Christ. Why would they rejoice at that? Well, what does that mean? The fact that they suffer for Christ, it means that they’re his people. It means that they’re righteous. And this is— You’re exactly right in that’s where the idea of asceticism in the Church comes from. Asceticism is afflicting yourself because the world’s not doing it to you enough. This is why monasticism shows up as soon as Christianity becomes legal.

Q2: Oh, okay.

Fr. Stephen: St. Anthony the Great, the founder of monasticism, inherited a ton of wealth and kind of read the New— the gospels and said, “Uh-oh.” [Laughter] Whole “camel through the needle” thing, and “woe to you who are rich,” “woe to you when all men speak well of you.” And so he afflictd himself; he went and he gave it all away. He said, “You know what? I eat too well. I’m getting fat. So I’m going to start fasting, and I’m going to take the money I would have spent on food, and I’m going to give it to people in need.” This is where asceticism comes from. It’s not that these things are evil, but it’s ourselves identifying ourselves with Christ and his people. It’s laying ourselves low so that God can lift us up rather than trying to lift ourselves up where God’s going to have to put us back down where we belong. That’s how these things connect.

But so this is why St. Paul— And he’s going to come back to this all through his epistles. This is why, when he suffers, when he’s shipwrecked, when he’s flogged, when he’s thrown in prison—this is why he rejoices and he’s so happy, because to him it’s proof that it’s all true. That it’s all true. And he points out that the hope of God “does not disappoint, because the love of God, God’s love for us, has been poured out into our hearts by the Holy Spirit who was given to us.” The Holy Spirit is God himself living within us and loving us is what St. Paul is saying, even through all those tribulations and all the hardships and all the…

“For when we were still without strength, in due time Christ died for the ungodly. For scarcely for a righteous man will one die; yet perhaps for a good man someone would even dare to die. But God demonstrates his own love towards us in that, while we were still sinners, Christ died for us.” So he says, “You don’t believe me about God’s love? You look and you say, ‘Well, we’re suffering all these things and that means that maybe it’s not true? Maybe God’s abandoned us and forgotten about us?’ ” He says: Well, think about this. Think about this. When we were still weak and without strength, when we were still ungodly, when we were still sinning—we were out there sinning—that’s when Christ died for us. Just like what we were saying with the Israelites. He didn’t come and say, “You guys get your act together and I’ll deliver you from Egypt.” [Laughter] Didn’t say, “You guys get your act together and I’ll let you into the promised land.” Brought them there first. Christ died for us, Christ did this for us—died for our sins, rose for our justification—back when we didn’t care; back when we were ungodly, sinful, weak, wicked people. That’s when he did this. He’s saying, “If that’s not love, I don’t know what is.”

He says, “You can hardly find somebody who would go and die for someone else.” He says, “Maybe for— Maybe if there was someone who was really righteous, really important, whom you really love, one would— You might, maybe, okay, maybe. But you certainly wouldn’t go and die for someone who hated you, for someone who was wicked, who was ungodly. You wouldn’t go and lay down your life for theirs, to protect them.” But that’s exactly what Christ did. He said that’s exactly what Christ did. He says, “If that’s not the love of God, then I don’t know what is.”

“Much more then, having now been justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.” Now notice the verb tenses here. We’ve been justified by his blood—past tense. We will be saved from wrath—future tense. [Laughter]

Q2: Okay, this really changes some things.

Fr. Stephen: Because what’s wrath? Wrath is what happens when the people are brought low, when the first are made last. So that’s “we will be.” When the time comes, because we’ve been justified by his blood—we’ve been put into this righteous category by his blood—now we don’t have to worry about wrath when he returns. We don’t have to worry about being set low when he returns.

Q2: Is this just another thing—“Are you saved?” I can’t answer that. [Laughter]

Fr. Stephen: But also, what does “justified by his blood” mean? What does “justified by his blood” mean?

Q2: It means “made able to be righteous.”

Fr. Stephen: Where does blood show up in the Old Testament?

Q2: Oh, sacrifices.

Fr. Stephen: But where in sacrifices?

Q2: The Temple?

Fr. Stephen: What do you do with it? Let me give you some examples.

Q2: Well, you—

Q1: Splatter it all over—

Fr. Stephen: Let me give you some examples.

Q2: You scrub the ark of the covenant.

Fr. Stephen: Passover. What did they do with it at Passover?

Q2: Put it on the door-posts.

Fr. Stephen: Put it on the door-posts. At Mount Sinai, Moses comes down with the Torah. We’ve been talking about the Torah, right? He comes down with the Torah, reads them the commandments of the Torah. The people say, “Sounds good to us. We agree”—rather hastily. [Laughter] And then what does Moses do? He takes blood from the sacrifice, and he sprinkles it all over them, and he says, “This is the blood of the covenant.” What do those two things have in common? What is the blood doing?

Q2: It’s saving.

Fr. Stephen: Well, it’s— Yeah, by marking.

Q2: Ah, yeah.

Fr. Stephen: It’s marking out this group of people, this group of people who are going to be spared from— Look at the Passover: what are they being spared from?

Q1: The angel of death.

Q2: Yeah.

Fr. Stephen: Right? Wrath. What’s going on with the angel of death in the Passover? What did Pharaoh do that set off the whole thing? Killed all the baby boys. When we get into Exodus, we’ll go into more detail. First he said they should all be aborted; then when the midwives say, “Err, it’s not working,” because they didn’t want to do it, he says, “Okay, well, just start: when a boy is born, throw it in the river.” He killed all the boys, killed all the sons of God’s people Israel. What happens on the Passover?

Q1: Kills the firstborns.

Fr. Stephen: Of?

Q1: The Egyptians.

Fr. Stephen: The Egyptians, because the Egyptians were the ones killing the sons of Israel. What’s that? That’s judgment. It’s balancing the scales again: mishpat. What Pharaoh did, murdering all these children, has thrown things out of balance. So now in a very horrible way, the scales get balanced. But that wrath that comes on the Egyptians, because of what they’ve done, doesn’t come on the Israelites because they’re marked out by a lamb’s blood, which puts them into this category of the righteous who are saved, who are vindicated.

When St. John the Forerunner points at Jesus and says, “Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world,” there were no lambs killed on the day of atonement; it was two goats. The place where the lamb got sacrificed was Passover. So when St. Paul here says that we’ve been justified by his blood, we’ve been put into this righteous category by the blood of Christ. And to come back to the scene at Mount Sinai, what does Christ say about the cup at the Last Supper?

Q1: He says it’s his blood.

Fr. Stephen: “This is my blood of the new covenant.” Moses had said, “This is the blood of the covenant, that marks you out as God’s people.” “This is the blood of the new covenant; marks you out as God’s people.” So this is what St. Paul’s talking about when he says: By Christ’s blood now, which is a lot better than a sheep— By Christ’s blood now we’ve been marked out as God’s people, we’ve been marked out as the righteous. And so that means when the wrath comes on the world, we don’t have to be afraid of it; we’re going to be delivered from it, the way Noah was delivered from it, the way the Israelites in Egypt were delivered from it. When this readjustment happens, we don’t have to fear it when that time comes.

“For if when we were enemies we were reconciled to God through the death of his Son, much more, having been reconciled—” We’ve got to watch these tenses again! So we were enemies, remember: we were the wicked, the ungodly, sinners. Back then, Christ died for us and brought us back, put us into this category, gave us peace with God, justified us, has made us righteous.

“—much more, having been reconciled,” this present state, the peace with God, the grace in which we stand, “much more shall we be saved by his life”—by Christ’s life. Remember? Resurrection, raised to our justification. So salvation for St. Paul is something that’s happening to us now; salvation is something that’s currently happening to us because we have this now—this life in Christ that comes after our justification, after that has taken place, associated with our baptism, associated with our death and new life. And so now we are being saved through Christ’s life, because Christ, having died, isn’t going to die again. He’s going to live forever and so will we, and that’s our salvation; we’re experiencing it throughout.

“And not only that, but we also rejoice in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation.” So now we can rejoice in God—not just we have peace with him, not just we don’t have to be scared of him or worry about the day of judgment, but we can actually rejoice in him, meaning we’re alive with him. We have God in our hearts and the Holy Spirit loving us. We know Christ has loved us enough to die for us, so we can rejoice in him and we can have a life of rejoicing, even in those tribulations that St. Paul was speaking about before.

This is probably actually a good place to stop. Thank you, everybody.